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  1. #21
    dilberryhoundog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    When all else fails get really, really mad, make assumptions and red herrings. That's cool. I'm not going to stoop to your level, but you definitely are impressionable. There are many CW scientists too, are all of their opinions right? You can twist science around easily to say whatever you want if your crowd is especially gullible and lacking in knowledge.

    Please learn about how a β-cell works, and actually learn about insulin's role in the body, before just adhering to anything that a specific group of people say(in this case, carbphobia "scientists" with an agenda) and without any knowledge whatsoever display it as fact. You'll get away with it here, only, since this forum is full of like-minded people, obviously.
    Insulin is the only "thing" that can put fat in fat cells (besides 'acylation stimulation protein' or ASP but this is a fairly inefficient process and is very very unlikely to be the cause of the obesity epidemic) you don't need to know about beta cells and the pancreas and insulin's other roles to understand that insulin is the only "thing" to put fat into fat cells.

    it is therefore logical to anyone that understands that fact (you don't need to study the endocrine system) that having high amounts of insulin coursing through your veins will make you fat eventually. If you have low amounts of insulin you won't necessarily lose weight, you just won't gain weight because.....
    Insulin is the only thing that can put fat in fat cells

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFastCat View Post
    yeah... you guys are completely ignoring the hormonal response to both macro nutrients when you say "it doesn't matter"

    fat in the presence of carbs is very easily stored as fat; carbs are higher on the metabolic foodchain to be used for fuel -- but not as high as alcohol. When there is a surplus of calories or your body is prone to store fat due to metabolic derangement -- these type of things do matter.

    you have to be careful throwing out "it doesn't matter" on this forum. Obese people starting the PB will read that and take it to mean a stick of butter on their sweet potatoes is Primal Eating. Let's encourage critical thinking.
    +1

    exactly what I was trying to put across.

    the carbs induce the insulin response, the fat gets stored also.

  3. #23
    Timthetaco's Avatar
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    I'd be curious as to your opinion of the four or five studies in my signature showing massive overfeeding of carbohydrates is extremely inefficient at producing fat gain. It seems you caught the Taubes bug. Perhaps you should broaden your perspective of biochemistry beyond simply insulin.

    And regarding the original question, "high fat high carb" would be the SAD, where you're eating over 100 grams of fat per day in addition to 4-500 grams of carbohydrates per day, but that's also simply known as overeating, which will cause weight gain no matter what. It's easier to gain weight on a hypercaloric mixed diet, because as people said, glucose is oxidized preferentially, so the fat is stored, but stored fat doesn't stay there forever. That's the purpose of eating under your TDEE, so you rely on some of your stored body fat for energy. That's how you lose weight.

    So I wouldn't fear eating a mixed diet as long as you're not overeating. It can't be both high fat and high carb in absolute terms; one will typically be higher than another, but that's entirely up to what suits your tastes.
    Last edited by Timthetaco; 02-19-2013 at 08:05 AM.

  4. #24
    dilberryhoundog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    I'd be curious as to your opinion of the four or five studies in my signature showing massive overfeeding of carbohydrates is extremely inefficient at producing fat gain.
    Care to explain, I don't get it?
    In aus over 60% of people are overweight or obese. With "low/no fat foods" being everywhere, it seems to me carbs are extremely efficient at producing fat gain.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    fat doesn't cause weight gain, a high insulin response does. a caloric surplus doesn't cause weight gain, a high insulin response does. carbs cause a high insulin response. (once your muscles are full of glucose) a high insulin response stores everything in your fat cells, both fat and sugar (this is the reason they say high fat and high carb is bad, high carbs cause the storage response (insulin), High fats are very energy dense and cause alot of fat to get stored)

    From marks book: carbohydrates control insulin, insulin controls fat storage

    nearly every diet on the planet calls for people to restrict calories (have a caloric deficit) and alot of them only lead to failures, technically "a caloric surplus leads to weight gain" is true, but it is not the route to weight loss. our hunger response is a very deep seated urge in our bodies and almost impossible to control, If the body "feels" like its calories is getting restricted it will enact the hunger response in full force, hense all the calorie restricting failures.

    the most helpful advice to give people is to suggest they eat to control their insulin response, this involves eating low amounts of carbs (around 50 - 100 grams a day). ofcourse with carbs this low we won't be getting much calories from them so we need to eat a good amount of fats. because we are getting a good amount of fats our hunger response is quelled and we naturally eat only the amount of energy we require.

    hope that helps
    the latest insulin warrior has arrived... fuck, i blame mark for writing all this dumb shit that this guy quoted.

    this is why i don't spend much time around here anymore.

  6. #26
    Timthetaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Care to explain, I don't get it?
    In aus over 60% of people are overweight or obese. With "low/no fat foods" being everywhere, it seems to me carbs are extremely efficient at producing fat gain.
    So nobody in Australia ever eats fat? And they never overeat? And they're still overweight? That's strange.

    So nobody gets offended, I'm not trying to assign a value judgment to the simple fact that people get fat when the energy they take in exceeds the energy they put out. Though you're obviously not going to believe that because you subscribe to a goofy theory that carbohydrates magically produce weight gain.
    Last edited by Timthetaco; 02-19-2013 at 10:20 AM.

  7. #27
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    ugh. It isn't one or the other: Taubes/hormones versus Calories in Calories out. It's both.
    When you play the CiCo card though you ignore lots of things like satiety that each of the different macronutrients bring; ie carbs are for many people have very low satiety per calorie, insulin response, glycemic index, the amount of volume I can actually eat (half a handful of nuts versus three heads of broccoli) etc.

    of course you can simple eat less of your bacon and sweet potato waffles, and honey. Or you could just not eat them in the first place...

    These are considerations that should be discussed when someone asks 'should I eat fat with my sugar?'
    ad astra per aspera

  8. #28
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    I think that a high insulin response makes fat people fat. Makes the already fat fatter. If you are thin, it doesn't have that effect. It's kind of a mystery why people are fat in the first place, but I suspect it has to do with high omega 6 vegetable oils setting the ball in motion somehow. For people who are already fat, controlling the insulin response while keeping them from feeling hungry helps them undo the damage and lose weight. But for the already thin, why bother?
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    I can squat 180lbs, press 72.5lbs and deadlift 185lbs

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    I'd be curious as to your opinion of the four or five studies in my signature showing massive overfeeding of carbohydrates is extremely inefficient at producing fat gain. It seems you caught the Taubes bug. Perhaps you should broaden your perspective of biochemistry beyond simply insulin.

    And regarding the original question, "high fat high carb" would be the SAD, where you're eating over 100 grams of fat per day in addition to 4-500 grams of carbohydrates per day, but that's also simply known as overeating, which will cause weight gain no matter what. It's easier to gain weight on a hypercaloric mixed diet, because as people said, glucose is oxidized preferentially, so the fat is stored, but stored fat doesn't stay there forever. That's the purpose of eating under your TDEE, so you rely on some of your stored body fat for energy. That's how you lose weight.

    So I wouldn't fear eating a mixed diet as long as you're not overeating. It can't be both high fat and high carb in absolute terms; one will typically be higher than another, but that's entirely up to what suits your tastes.
    I agree with this. I don't think your macronutrient ratio makes much of a difference as long as you aren't overeating and are consuming whole foods. I have family who live in Austrailia and they have just as many junk food choices as we do here in the US. But when you look at traditional cultures that eat a high carb diet from fruits/tubers/rice their incidence of obesity and chronic illness is very low. It is obviously going to be different when you are eating pop-tarts, donuts and sodas as your source of carbs. Eat real food and things normally get much better regardless of your ratios.
    "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

    People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Insulin is the only "thing" that can put fat in fat cells (besides 'acylation stimulation protein' or ASP but this is a fairly inefficient process and is very very unlikely to be the cause of the obesity epidemic) you don't need to know about beta cells and the pancreas and insulin's other roles to understand that insulin is the only "thing" to put fat into fat cells.

    it is therefore logical to anyone that understands that fact (you don't need to study the endocrine system) that having high amounts of insulin coursing through your veins will make you fat eventually. If you have low amounts of insulin you won't necessarily lose weight, you just won't gain weight because.....
    Insulin is the only thing that can put fat in fat cells

    I want you to keep your carbs below 20g daily and your protein low - or whatever it takes to to not spike your insulin - and eat a pound of butter, or drink a pint of olive oil, daily.

    According to you, you won't gain weight nor fat. Let me know how that goes.
    Last edited by Shadowknight137; 02-19-2013 at 12:11 PM.

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