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  1. #321
    Ayla2010's Avatar
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    stop twisting my words.
    Pulling out loose teeth is not the same. I can't say I will do that myself. But as for your parents, I don't think they would have been doing it to cause you pain just so you will obey. So not the same.

  2. #322
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    So what I'm saying is, maybe you are the one assigning this "so they obey" motivation to parents that hit, when in their mind, they are thinking, "because it's good for the child," as in the case of pulling teeth.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  3. #323
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    for the record, now that I reflect on it, it's only my mom's father that I remember pulling my teeth, and he did it with bakery string and the bathroom door-knob.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  4. #324
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    That was so traumatic, the thread and the doorknob..
    Scary yet exciting, money involved

  5. #325
    Him's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayla2010 View Post
    ... But as for your parents, I don't think they would have been doing it to cause you pain just so you will obey. ...
    Do you think punishment is "so you will obey"?

    My parents didn't have any concern over whether I obeyed or not. I can say this with some authority because we had exactly that discussion when I was young (well under 10) and I remember it. We used to joke about it even. It went something like this...

    Parent: "In the Marine Corps when someone tells you to jump, you JUMP and ask how high on the way up. So when I tell you to jump, what are you going to do?"

    Me: "Ask why."

    They actively encouraged me, in many ways, to challenge authority - including theirs - and think for myself. That's actually a great deal of why public school and I didn't get along too well... at home I was expected to challenge and to disagree when I thought someone was wrong, as long as I could articulate why, but at school it just doesn't go over well when the 3rd grader explains in detail why the teacher is wrong about something. At home that would be accepted as normal, at school it got my parents called in for special conferences.

    They didn't want obedience. They wanted my safety, both for myself and others.

    Physical punishment only came when I did something that acutely endangered myself or others, especially when that danger was one they knew I was aware of, and even more specifically when I couldn't justify doing so in a reasonable way. I avoided punishment several times not by following the rules or avoiding harm/danger, but by being able to articulate a reason for the action I took. If, on the other hand, I did something that could've gotten someone killed, and my reason was a mumbled, "I don't know...." Well, that wasn't going to work out in my favor. The "sin" wasn't disobedience, it was thoughtlessness. In other words, they were attempting (correctly, I in hindsight believe) to encourage judgment. Usually with words, but (perhaps because I did some things that by today's standards would have people really freaked out) sometimes they didn't think words were enough.

    Were they wrong? I'm happy with myself, I'm able to function in the business and social worlds fairly successfully, and I still have an independent streak several miles wide, so I think not.
    Last edited by Him; 02-12-2013 at 03:01 PM.

  6. #326
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    No spankings or hit, had a good disciplined household, never really did or had any trouble growing up -- other than at school which was mostly bullying and what i consider "institutionalized abuse" which allows for and even creates environments of bullying.

    I have a young son. No spankings/hitting, and of course good discipline all around. It mostly just takes setting good boundaries and calmly keeping them.

  7. #327
    zoebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    So what I'm saying is, maybe you are the one assigning this "so they obey" motivation to parents that hit, when in their mind, they are thinking, "because it's good for the child," as in the case of pulling teeth.
    While I believe this is what those parents are thinking, I can also demonstrate through science (psychology and child development) that such is not the actual case. Try a google search and see.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    Chaohinon, you are awesome. I have a man-crush on you after reading this thread.

    BUT forced-castration threats, even meant in jest, are not a good way to reinforce your point, here. Bad call.
    +1
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
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    bloodorchid is always right

  9. #329
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    I got hit and damn if I didn,t deserve it too sometimes. It got my attention and I behaved as a kid and I behave as an adult. It worked for me that's all I can say. Like all things in life reasonable care and balance are the keys

  10. #330
    Him's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    While I believe this is what those parents are thinking, I can also demonstrate through science (psychology and child development) that such is not the actual case. Try a google search and see.
    There is hard science supporting the idea that the animal neurological pain/response system evolved to facilitate learning safety-critical lessons.

    Apart from the whole MAO-A issue, is there really any hard science supporting the idea that deliberate activation of that part of our evolutionary heritage is harmful?

    I agree that for individuals with genetic MAOA deficiencies there is a solid scientific case for avoiding physical punishment. Outside that subset of the population, though, I haven't seen credible science showing harm, and I've looked.
    Last edited by Him; 02-13-2013 at 06:16 AM.

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