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Thread: Any gentle/attached parents around? Need advice? page 3

  1. #21
    NZ primal Gwamma's Avatar
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    Ayla you have alot of advice to decipher above and I don't really want to add much more - as it can all get very confusing for a first time five year old school Parent.
    Beating yourself up isn't going to achieve anything - so this is my .02cents worth.
    Generally 4 - 5 year old children love attention, they love attention in any form. When your five year old hurts his younger sibling - who do you go to first, and how do you deal with this ? if you are dealing with the hitter first - hes won, hes got your attention, however if you ignore him and cuddle and kiss the hittee - make a wee fuss, often the hitter comes to realise that he/she is not getting the attention that they want. You still need to deal with the hitter, but delay it until you have fussed over the hittee. CONFUSED ???????
    You will find what works for you, but sadly its often a trial and error thing, and what works for one family doesn't always work for another
    "never let the truth get in the way of a good story "

    ...small steps....

  2. #22
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    G def we comfort our 2 year old. Then ask our oldest what made him angry.

    Mr perfidy. Hitting our child would teach violence is ok and that's not the message we want to teach.
    I did ask for advice from gentle parents

  3. #23
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    Violence is ok...he is made out of it. The sun did not ask the Earth, "Hey- want to be my friend? I would be so happy if you spun around me forever."

    It grabbed that shit with greater force.

    But like I said- right now "violence" is the same thing as "algebra" or "transcendentalism" to him because it's just your idea, and now he is going to spend his life in service to someone else's idea. You should stamp that knowledge deep in him for it to be real; he has to learn with his senses and his emotions and his nerve-endings, not just his thinking.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  4. #24
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    I'm not trying to be disrespectful- please do not get me wrong here. I am anti-aggression, and in my environment regularly diminish violent tensions rather than feed them. I like the fact that people are actively trying to undo the madness of the ignorance of so many centuries of brutality-implanted fear-enforced moral systems, which I believe and witness daily leads in individuals to the development of what I call "canine morality." That is to say, a great many regard anything that invites the lash to be "bad" and anything that invites the loving tender petting hand to be "good." It is why people respect the police and soldiers, the food and pharmaceutical industries, and all manner of coercion.

    That being said, man is a territorial social mammal, and territorial social mammals have very sophisticated and beautiful degrees of inflicting physical harm as a means of asserting individual rights and claims. Children should learn that violence begets violence and that there is always a meaner motherfucker, and that isn't done without a smack.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    I'm not trying to be disrespectful- please do not get me wrong here. I am anti-aggression, and in my environment regularly diminish violent tensions rather than feed them. I like the fact that people are actively trying to undo the madness of the ignorance of so many centuries of brutality-implanted fear-enforced moral systems, which I believe and witness daily leads in individuals to the development of what I call "canine morality." That is to say, a great many regard anything that invites the lash to be "bad" and anything that invites the loving tender petting hand to be "good." It is why people respect the police and soldiers, the food and pharmaceutical industries, and all manner of coercion.

    That being said, man is a territorial social mammal, and territorial social mammals have very sophisticated and beautiful degrees of inflicting physical harm as a means of asserting individual rights and claims. Children should learn that violence begets violence and that there is always a meaner motherfucker, and that isn't done without a smack.
    I have no idea what you are on about.
    If you have no gentle advice, please don't respond anymore.
    I am not interested in making my children be afraid of me.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by meeshar View Post
    I feel you, my almost 5yo has been getting into trouble at school and making up stories about what really happened. She's experimenting, this is the first time she's been away from us for extended periods of time (no daycare, just some morning out/gym childcare) and the idea that she has some control over what we know went on during the day is intoxicating. I'm not sure if this would work for you, but one thing that almost always works for us is just to threaten to ask the teacher what happened - no actual asking required. When she's had a bad behavior day we talk about it in the car in the parking lot at school, and if she starts sounding fantastical or accusing other kids, I tell her that if her teacher tells me she's lying, she will be grounded, and start to get back out of the car. 9 times out of 10 this works--she confesses immediately. I hate to constantly question her truthfulness, but to be honest this age is all about storytelling and testing limits. I don't punish her when she tells the truth, but I do make sure that she realizes it was wrong to lie--for example she got in trouble for pulling a boy's hair and tried to claim that he hit her and hurt her. The story kept getting more and more dramatic (red flag!) until I pulled the "ask the teacher" card, and she confessed that he hadn't done anything. At that point, I told her that hitting and hurting other kids can get them suspended or expelled from school, and that her lying could have gotten that kid in BIG trouble. She is doing much better now, but the troublemaking, testing, and tall tale spinning did last about a month before she finally decided that it wasn't worth it anymore.
    I have asked him and he is still adamant that he doesn't hit. So I will ask, but if she hasn't seen him hit, then I will believe him. I do now, but I do know that he could be just saying that. He knows he won't be in trouble if he did, but I told him, I can' t help him if I don't know what is going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalWannabeGirl View Post
    I'm not a teacher, and my kids are 21 and 22, but I practiced attachment parenting with both my sons.

    Here's my .02 cents for what it is worth.

    Kids at this age are venturing out into the wider world than the one of immediate family. Especially if they haven't gone to preschool or had a lot of socialization, these are brand-new challenges for them. It's our job as parents to TEACH THEM WHAT THEY NEED TO KNOW in order to thrive in that wider world.

    Kids of that age need to understand clearly what is expected of them, what the rewards for good behavior are, and what the consequences for inappropriate behavior. They need it told to them simply, clearly, and with consistency.

    We "gentle" parents sometimes err on the side of not being firm enough and consistent enough about limits, and we do our children a disservice when we aren't strong enough to be appropriately firm. If we are doing a lot of talking and delving and explaining, our kids sometimes get lost in all the verbiage.

    So my suggestion is to keep it very simple. Work with your child's teacher to simply extinquish the inappropriate behaviors. See if she'll agree to let you know very simply each day if your child had a hitting incident. Say clearly and simply to your child that hitting is not allowed, and that any day that there is no hitting, your child will earn a treat, say a half-hour of playtime with you, or an extra bedtime story. Any day that has a hitting report, no TV at all. Soon your child will learn that his actions have consequences. Keep it simple----no elaborate explanations. Just that you are helping him to remember and learn what is expected of him.

    DO NOT FEEL GUILTY for setting firm limits. Firm limits are kind. Children need them. "Talking problems out" often is not sufficient to teach, they need to learn that actions have consequences. Don't be afraid to be a firm parent. Your child will feel safer, and learn self-control. Good luck!

    Pea
    Thanks for the advice. I am reluctant to do the punishment and reward thing. I don't want him to not hit just so he can watch tv.
    I need to re-read Alfie Kohns Unconditional Parenting again. How do you think you can do this without making it obviously a reward or punishment. He knows that its better to use your words if you are angry, but I do understand in the moment at this age they can't always control themselves. As far as I know they are never alone yet, so I imagine the teacher will be able to step in before it gets to that point, but I guess also she can't always have her eye 100% on each of them so I don't know.
    TV is already now not going to happen at all during the week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal123 View Post
    Well, it is possible the other kids are hitting your son and he is retaliating in kind. Perhaps, suggest to him that he tell the teacher when the other kids hit him. It's possible that the teacher has gotten the idea that your son is the aggressor when in fact he is not. I have seen this happen in the past with kids I have worked with. If the initial impression by the teacher was negative it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. I agree with canio for a scheduled appointment. Good luck. Attachment parenting and gentle discipline definitely does not end in toddlerhood. We can teach without becoming "the enforcer."
    This is also what I am wondering. So this is why I need clarification on everything. She just says, there was an incident, and I have not felt like I could ask more. But I need to know everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mud Flinger View Post
    Can you volunteer in his classroom? I have always found teachers to be super helpful when they know that you are on their side. They will tell you both the good and bad things and may give your kid the benefit of the doubt just because you have been there with them. Plus your kid sees how much you value education. Offer to help at recess time, lunch time or in the class room. Come early or stay after to help clean the room or get supplies ready. Until you see it for yourself, you may just be guessing.
    I am not sure, I always have my 2 year old with me, so probably won't be able to. If volunteering comes up I will ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Nah.
    I just figure he's kind of mentally deficient.
    I've read some of his other posts.
    Seriously not playing with a full deck... in a way that is sad at the very least.
    Yes I think so.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayla2010 View Post
    Would it be incredibly annoying of me, to ask the teacher to keep notes about any incidents that occur at school? And what was done about it? I, along with another mum from school find her so vague about explaining things. Yes they need to do their job, but knowing what is going on is so important to me so we can work through it.
    As far as I'm concerned its the teacher's responsibility to keep notes, especially if she is disciplining your son.

    Are you able/permitted to spend time in the classroom?

    My son is not a hitter by nature, and he knows we don't tolerate it in our family. He's not a "hey, lets wrestle!" boy, he's a sports and exploration boy. So when he encountered the 'play fighting' kind of kid he didn't always know how to handle himself. It was a learning experience.

    HOWEVER, we have let him know in no uncertain terms, that if someone hurts him or starts a fight, he has our permission to fight back. He isn't a fight starter, but he IS a finisher. And if he is backed into a corner or pinned, he will go tazmanian devil.

    Sadly, its usually the one fighting back who gets noticed, not the one who starts it. The bullies are really good at going unnoticed. If what your son says is true, then the teacher needs to be informed. And if she doesnt' do anything, take it higher.

    I also want to add, we are 'those parents' who restrict/monitor TV, computer, video games, social media for our kids. My 12yo doesn't watch Glee or have a Facebook account. My 9yo doesn't play Call of Duty or watch Family Guy. They is too much inappropriateness and violence in today's media and entertainment and it disturbs me that so many children are desensitized to it.
    Last edited by Sandra in BC; 02-11-2013 at 01:23 PM.
    Sandra
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  8. #28
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    Kids are boundary-pushing machines. If you say that something is a boundary, most kids that age will react as though you painted a great big "do this" sign on whatever you are talking about.

    Talking through "express your anger with words, not violence" and the like is too cerebral. As a parent, your job isn't setting boundaries (the world does a great job of that), and it isn't to empathize with frustrations, it's to impart values. In other words, make the kid WANT to be a certain way. How? Totally depends on the kid but role playing can be a big part of it. So can stories. You have a big advantage in that kids are not only boundary pushing machines, but born role-model mimics so if you play a role they will want to play the same role. Get the kid to want to be someone who wouldn't want to do that sort of thing.

    TV... honestly I think it's both overly vilified and best avoided. The Simpsons is probably one of the better shows since every episode is a morality tale preaching niceness but I'm of the "murder your TV" camp so I'm not going to say anybody should be watching even 30 minutes a day.

    Finally, though....

    Does your kid have deficient MAO-A production genes?

    If he does, you are very wise to be sticking to a "gentle parenting" regime. "A connection between a version of the monoamine oxidase A gene (3R) and several types of antisocial behavior has been found. MAOA had no statistically significant main effect on antisocial behavior. Maltreated children with genes causing high levels of MAO-A were less likely to develop antisocial behavior. Low MAO-A activity in combination with abuse experienced during childhood results in an increased risk of aggressive behaviour as an adult..."

    Now, do you know that about the kids he is hitting at school?

    Physical punishment will not automatically make your kid think violence is OK. I'm not advocating violence but if your kid has normal MAO-A levels and is of average intelligence an educational swat or two is extremely unlikely to harm him, and may convince him not to hit others. On the other hand, if the kids he is hitting have low MAO-A levels, his hitting them would actually be quite likely to contribute to them growing up thinking violence is OK. In that case, your failure to discipline your child may result in other children forming exactly the view you fear imparting to him. Just something to consider.

  9. #29
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    This is hilarious. Is this what those half-assed parents are calling themselves? Attached? Wow.

    There's a boy in my wife's class whose dad lets him run willy-nilly into the street, crawl under bushes and verbally mock and abuse him, all the while Dad stands and mumbles, gently talking about how all those things are wrong. That's going to go over really well the first time the boy murders somebody, a gentle voice murmuring in his head about why it's wrong - and no consequences coming whatsoever until it's prison time. That boy, and his dad, both need a lot of physical conditioning to come back down to earth where doing bad things = bad reactions/consequences. The man is not a parent, he's a worm, a laughing stock and a failure. That boy is a monster and only gets worse with every passing week. He has more respect for his teachers than his own dad, and that's sick, sad and wrong.

    I got spanked, and sometimes I knew what I was being spanked for. That fear of making a mistake forged my psyche, pushed me to absolutely know right versus wrong. It also turned me into a drunk for awhile, but I never killed anybody.


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  10. #30
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    this is a wonderful thread. I believe in attachment to our kids. Control and dominance ARE possible leadership styles, but the communities led this way, they suck. Families led by dominance, control, manipulation and threats of violence are crappy places to grow up. They may build character, but there are better ways to build character, IMO.

    But, I agree that we learn about physical violence, physically. We learn how to run by running, not by listening to our parents gently explain the neuromechanics of it. We fall out of trees and wrestle and chase...that's important learning, too.

    Martial arts is a great way of building that character, teaching physical lessons about & with violence in a safe environment. While it teaches a kid to kick ass, that child is simultaneously learning limits, boundaries, self-discipline, and the confidence to avoid a fight. Attach to your kids, but give them the tools to face an ungentle world with strength.

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