So which is it? page 6

[j3nn]

I eat non-primal foods even when I'm not breaking a deficit.

[Leida]

Yes the mind can easily override the impulse to eat, it's called willpower. I do not have anorexia, but in high school I lost a lot of weight the CW way by greatly restricting calories, and experienced signs of extreme metabolic slow down: I was constantly cold, especially my extremities, and had low alertness. I did get darn skinny tho. This was accomplished by eating nothing until I came home after school and having one bowl of shredded wheat with nonfat milk, then eating a very reasonable portion of whatever mom made for dinner (nothing particularly unhealthy, CW-wise). I did not have a disorder but I did have a strong will to lose weight; it's high school, where there is ton of social pressure to be skinny. I had always been a slightly heavier kid, and never paid attention much to what I ate till my friend asked me what my double chin was in middle school, and all of a sudden I noticed I was overweight. So in 9th grade I slimmed down by that starvation-mode diet. Was probably a size 4 then.

You are describing extreme caloric control over well-being, and calorie-restricting most likely to under 1000 cal a day for more than three weeks in a row due to outside pressure to be thin. It is an anorexia neurosa tendency. People interpret it differently, of course, but for me will power for me is not eating a treat on impulse instead or after a nourishing meal. Or not having a second helping when you feel close to full. Artificial resistance to hunger while suffering continual starvation, disturbed sleep and abnormal body functions is going past will power.

Thankfully, your healthy instincts prevented you from actually starving to the point that your essential body functions get threatened and you have regained weight as a result. I hope you find a happy median. I am fighting to find one as well.

As for 15-20% BF, it is not professional body-building level for females. It is an athletic level, when most people would perceive a female as firm and athletic as opposite to simply 'not fat' or somewhat plump; the natural elfin 'I was first in line when Mother Nature was giving out the genes' would be closer to 15%, the Thighs R Us group can maybe diet down to like 20% (maybe?). Female body builders have to go lower to pretty hard-core 12-14% to get muscular definition that stands out as exceptional and somewhat unnatural.

I don't think I was ever able to go below low twenties (maybe when I was 113 lbs on that one day of my life when I broke down and couldn't do UD anymore?), and I have never looked athletic/firm, always plump (even on that day when I was 113 lbs). Maybe it is a natural look, when you are in mid-twenties-low thirties, but nobody would ever guess that I set my foot in a gym by simply looking at me. But what can you do. Everyone is very different, and there is no one BF% when you know you'd look fab afterwards.

[gopintos]

I'm a HUGE fan of calorie cycling. I think it's the most natural way to eat; less some days, more others; none some days, LOTS others, etc.

So those doing the "cheat" day is that even non primal foods?

This is what I have been trying of late, Calorie/Carb cycling, in order to make myself eat up to BMR/maintenance. That is pretty scary.

My "cheat" days, I don't call them cheat, just higher calorie days, as they are just more primal foods, nothing SAD bad. I just have trouble eating up that high, so I tend to stay low to mid range. So I am really going to have to work on my zig and my zag. But I think the scale has been cooperating this week.

And I know... forget the scale. But I have enough to lose that it is still a good tool for me. And last week, I really felt like I lost weight. I was out of town and feeling really good. I get home, and I gained. Uggghh.

[JoanieL]

I've never really bought into the theory that you can eat too little to lose weight. However, our bodies are extremely adaptable (just look at how different diets are in various countries from first to third world), and I believe that extended periods of very low calorie eating can stall you a bit.

My solution is to vary my calorie intake by almost fasting one day, eating reduced calories most days, and having a splurge day if the scale reads the same weight for too long when I'm trying to lose. Splurge as in maybe 1600-2000 calories, not splurge as in hang at a bakery and sample everything. That 1600-2000 range might be not much of a splurge for a lot of people, but I'm small, not terribly active, and older.

There's a happy medium (for me) between using low cal/fat artificial foods and getting 70% of my calories from fat. I eat foods that are primal. I don't usually add extra fat any more than I would add extra sugar. I trim fat and toss chicken skin (after cooking it), but I don't avoid marbled meats (I used to). When I indulge in a "bullet proof" coffee, I only put 3/4 of a tblsp of butter in instead of the two or three tblsp recommended. IOW, I embrace pretty much everything about primal except the notion (mostly on the forum, not Mark's) that I should toss a hunk of fat/oil/butter on everything I eat. I use added fats judiciously - for example, a teaspoon of butter to fry eggs, not a fake spray (pre-primal), nor two or three tablespoons like when I first started primal.

Anyway, all of that is only what my body has told me. Low carb helps keep me from being hungry all the time. A reduction in calories in a manner I can live with (big supper, not much else throughout the day). And neither shying away from naturally occurring fats, nor superfatting my food. I'm sure it wouldn't work for everyone.

Note: I was a chubby child, so I've learned that whatever "hungry" means to the naturally thin of this world, it isn't something my brain understands. Eating whenever I want has never worked to either lose or maintain for me.

[magicmerl]

So those doing the "cheat" day is that even non primal foods?

Not really. It basically just means eating a third meal and dessert in the evenings (typically a baked banana with a piece of melted dark chocolate swimming in cream, sometimes doubled). And pieces of dark chocolate later in the evening ....

Plus, the concept of 'feast' days means you can enjoy celebrations with people as long as you pretend to be a celiac

[Ayla2010]

Not really. It basically just means eating a third meal and dessert in the evenings (typically a baked banana with a piece of melted dark chocolate swimming in cream, sometimes doubled). And pieces of dark chocolate later in the evening ....

Plus, the concept of 'feast' days means you can enjoy celebrations with people as long as you pretend to be a celiac

Oh cool. I doubt I could go back to non primal food

[meeshar]

I've never really bought into the theory that you can eat too little to lose weight. However, our bodies are extremely adaptable (just look at how different diets are in various countries from first to third world), and I believe that extended periods of very low calorie eating can stall you a bit.

My solution is to vary my calorie intake by almost fasting one day, eating reduced calories most days, and having a splurge day if the scale reads the same weight for too long when I'm trying to lose. Splurge as in maybe 1600-2000 calories, not splurge as in hang at a bakery and sample everything. That 1600-2000 range might be not much of a splurge for a lot of people, but I'm small, not terribly active, and older.

There's a happy medium (for me) between using low cal/fat artificial foods and getting 70% of my calories from fat. I eat foods that are primal. I don't usually add extra fat any more than I would add extra sugar. I trim fat and toss chicken skin (after cooking it), but I don't avoid marbled meats (I used to). When I indulge in a "bullet proof" coffee, I only put 3/4 of a tblsp of butter in instead of the two or three tblsp recommended. IOW, I embrace pretty much everything about primal except the notion (mostly on the forum, not Mark's) that I should toss a hunk of fat/oil/butter on everything I eat. I use added fats judiciously - for example, a teaspoon of butter to fry eggs, not a fake spray (pre-primal), nor two or three tablespoons like when I first started primal.

Anyway, all of that is only what my body has told me. Low carb helps keep me from being hungry all the time. A reduction in calories in a manner I can live with (big supper, not much else throughout the day). And neither shying away from naturally occurring fats, nor superfatting my food. I'm sure it wouldn't work for everyone.

Note: I was a chubby child, so I've learned that whatever "hungry" means to the naturally thin of this world, it isn't something my brain understands. Eating whenever I want has never worked to either lose or maintain for me.

I have personally experienced starvation mode, but my situation was very different than most folks--I was 4 months out from having had gastric bypass. I was losing weight like crazy (as I was supposed to be), fairly sedentary but with daily power walks on my lunch break, and at that point I was able to eat around 600 calories a day. However, I started taking Taekwondo lessons and my weight loss stopped dead in it's tracks for weeks, even at 600 calories a day. I ended up having to increase my intake to 800+ calories/day to start losing weight again.

I agree with your moderate fat approach, I was doing great losing weight on a Primal diet until I really embraced the fats (and likely overdid it), and that's when my weight loss slowed to a crawl and I had to start counting calories. I was overweight/obese from childhood as well, so I understand exactly what you mean about hunger signals.

[gopintos]

I agree with your moderate fat approach, I was doing great losing weight on a Primal diet until I really embraced the fats (and likely overdid it), and that's when my weight loss slowed to a crawl and I had to start counting calories.

This was my trouble also. Well I slowed down a bit actually on primal, but then came to a screeching halt. And now I am just having trouble finding my groove again. <deep sigh> I get happy cuz I lose, but then I gain. So I am happy cuz it looks like I am losing, but when I look at my tracking, I am not gaining any ground. And since the first of the year, well mid december, I have been losing ground. <double deep sigh>

[sbhikes]

I am seeing a lot "eat less and you will lose weight" I know its not as simple as that.

But then you have the others around here saying eat too little and your body will go into starvation mode, and hold on to the fat.

If I search I know ill find science for and against both ideas.

What is YOUR experience?

This video is good.
The Science of Slim « THAT PALEO GUY

I think what is missing from this movie is if you have a binge-eating problem, you will need to ignore the messages in this movie to "chow down" and "eat as much as you want." A little moderation may be in order for you.

You may also find that your set point isn't as low as the latest fashions make you want it to be. Right now it seems to be cool for women to be not only very thin but also very thin and very muscular. Is this appropriate or obtainable for all women? Probably not.

Probably what is also missing from this video is that it may take a long time to reach a point of health where all these pieces work well together, where you can just eat whatever you want from healthy foods and trust your appetite and stay slim, and some people may need medical help to get there.

I don't think it can be all about food and dieting. I really think you also need the stuff in the primal blueprint fitness program. You don't have to do the exact program, but I think exercise of the type in the PBF program is part of obtaining the full gene expression and restoration of your primal health. Not that it will guarantee a skinny body, but a healthy, strong, resilient body is an amazing and wonderful thing that will become part of restoring your sanity with food.

Currently I eat as much as I want of salmon, white and sweet potatoes, steamed vegetables sometimes with butter, and other meats. I am naughty with cheese, nuts, wine and chocolate. I could probably lose some weight if I cut back on the naughty stuff and ate smaller portions of the good stuff and did more high impact interval crap. I don't count calories. I don't restrict. I eat WHEN. I eat for recovery for my strength program. I don't look like a cross-fit poster girl or like whatever crazy 15% body fat hell someone else might think is ideal.

[Sandra in BC]

I lose weight when I'm really paying attention to hunger cues and eating clean. If I allow myself to experience true hunger, and feed myself to satiate that hunger, I will lose weight regardless of the amount of calories I consume in a sitting. I don't' mean that I can eat as much as I want. I pay attention to how much my body is asking for. I am not perfect.

It means I have to pass up food offerings and eating opportunities if I'm not truly hungry. Psychologically, its hard to pass up treats and feel deprived of getting my "fair share." Its hard to get out of the habit of rewarding myself or celebrating with food.