Has becoming primal/paleo ruined your life? page 7

[Him]

Why don't you save me some time and let me know the height of your ad hominem bar? Seems like if someone puts two dimes together, like Michael Moore, their attacked as rich hypocrits. If they're poor they're sour grapes.

For the record: I have never said anything about Michael Moore. Not here, not elsewhere. I've never met the man, have no particular interest in his work, and don't know much about him.

As for my bar... when you bite the hand that feeds you, I'm going to point that out. It speaks directly to your credibility. Engels took advantage of family connections and turned around and pissed on what his family connections gave him. It's no different than a person on welfare claiming that welfare should be abolished. You are free to construe that as an ad hom, as you are free to be wrong about anything else.

A lot folks smarter than me have debated how exactly to define Capitalism. I can envision a version that doesn't include compound interest or private land ownership.

Sure, there can be forms of Capitalism like that. When you think about it, that's the stereotype of the free trader... the mythical trade ship that bounces from port to port buying and selling, taking advantage of relative value differentials. However, that probably isn't a very good form of Capitalism. It leads to entities like the Dutch East-India Company, which started out with capital from trade (therefore didn't need compound interest) and didn't really honor any land ownership claims. It logically follows from what you want, but historically it wasn't a particularly pleasant organization.

I don't know the numbers but the amount of actual protestors in a movement is always going to be small. But Occupy spread spontaneously without an organization to over 600 communities in the US, thousands worldwide.

Well now that's an interesting thing. If you start with the idea that there are 600,000+ homeless people already living wherever they can and perfectly happy to hold up a sign if it'll net them some cash, and you add the fact that that since Obama was elected the workforce has stayed more or less static (around 30,000 net jobs gained under Obama IIRC) while the population has gone up by around 8,000,000....well, that's a pretty huge pool of people who don't got nuthin better to do than play Occupy. The fact that they were widespread is a product of our widespread communications systems (e.g. the internet) ... the fact that out of potentially millions of people who could join the protests without particular cost, not even 50,000 actually joined, says that the occupy position was not particularly popular.

[Rojo]

As for my bar... when you bite the hand that feeds you, I'm going to point that out. It speaks directly to your credibility. Engels took advantage of family connections and turned around and pissed on what his family connections gave him.

Marx was broke, Engels was not. You're basically saying that no life circumstance is acceptable if you criticize capitalism.

When you think about it, that's the stereotype of the free trader... the mythical trade ship that bounces from port to port buying and selling, taking advantage of relative value differentials. However, that probably isn't a very good form of Capitalism.

Nothing mythical about it. Arabs dominated this kind of trade for a long time. But Islam prohibited usury (so did Christianity until the money got too big), so the money backers would be full partners -- they got a chunk of the upside and took the downside loss. Contrast this with banks who get paid back even if you loose your shirt (or, after TARP, even if they loose their shirt).

Well now that's an interesting thing. If you start with the idea that there are 600,000+ homeless people already living wherever they can and perfectly happy to hold up a sign if it'll net them some cash, and you add the fact that that since Obama was elected the workforce has stayed more or less static (around 30,000 net jobs gained under Obama IIRC) while the population has gone up by around 8,000,000....well, that's a pretty huge pool of people who don't got nuthin better to do than play Occupy. The fact that they were widespread is a product of our widespread communications systems (e.g. the internet) ... the fact that out of potentially millions of people who could join the protests without particular cost, not even 50,000 actually joined, says that the occupy position was not particularly popular.

Hard to keep track of the numbers you're throwing around, I won't try. Suffice it to say it was a spontaneous, widespread uprising that frightened the establishment enough to crush it.

[Him]

Marx was broke, Engels was not. You're basically saying that no life circumstance is acceptable if you criticize capitalism.

Balderdash!

In the first instance I was refuting your claim that Karl was an expert on Capitalism. Experts can harness their knowledge. They can combine circumstances and knowledge to create and exploit opportunity. Karl tried and failed. Had he tried and succeeded, and then said, "but this is wrong and I'm stopping," you could argue (as you tried to do) that Karl was a subject matter expert and conscientious objector. That was not the case. The life circumstance was fine but it directly contradicts your assertion.

In the second instance you implied that Engels was a capitalist. That is factually incorrect. Engels was a nepotist. He was the son of a capitalist and, through family connections - not expertise - was put in a sinecure position which he did not enjoy. Had he built the business himself instead of being handed the reigns, and then said, "but this is wrong so I'm stopping," you could argue (as you tried to do) that Engels was a subject matter expert and conscientious objector. That was not the case. The life circumstance was fine but it directly contradicts your assertion.

Neither man demonstrated any real knowledge of capitalism. One tried and failed, one had the world handed to him, neither ever built a thing of his own beyond theory that failed real world testing (and in the process got a lot of people killed). That in no way implies that a person can't criticize capitalism unless they are capitalists, or that their life circumstances were wrong in some way, it says you were wrong when you called them experts on the subject.

Nothing mythical about it. Arabs dominated this kind of trade for a long time. But Islam prohibited usury (so did Christianity until the money got too big), so the money backers would be full partners -- they got a chunk of the upside and took the downside loss. Contrast this with banks who get paid back even if you loose your shirt (or, after TARP, even if they loose their shirt).

Perhaps 'fabled' would be a better word. Storied. As in, doesn't exist now, may never have exist in the sense that we assume/imagine.

Hard to keep track of the numbers you're throwing around, I won't try. Suffice it to say it was a spontaneous, widespread uprising that frightened the establishment enough to crush it.

The numbers should make it easier. They give real scale to things which could otherwise be lost in what we little humans think of as a crowd.

You can't crush the truth.

[valmason01]

Yes..We should all feel compassion. As someone pointed out earlier the extreme right wing Christians have hijacked the discussion. I have a hard time believing Jesus would make someone suffer because they didn't have health insurance. And as His follower I resent how He is represented in society now. I have no desire to rule over anybody. And yes the health care industry, oil and religion are all corrupt. The whole frickin' mess makes me furious.

BS! There are still lots of people in this world that feel compassion. Health care should be free. Are we not all brothers and sisters? The health care industry is right up there with oil and religion when it comes to corruption.

[fiercehunter]

You need Bach flower essences and some carbs. Relax- you will only get carted away (probably) if you say the wrong thing on Facebook. You could delete, but you know how that works....

I spent part of last summer boning up on all the scary NWO stuff. I read everything from Lysander Spooner to Hollywood as a devil cult. My conclusion was that I would need to leave the U.S., something I don't want to do. So I stopped reading it.

As for capitalism, blame the Protestants.

[ssn679doc]

Yes..We should all feel compassion. As someone pointed out earlier the extreme right wing Christians have hijacked the discussion. I have a hard time believing Jesus would make someone suffer because they didn't have health insurance.

Wouldn't he just touch them, and heal them and not ask for an insurance card?

[Gadsie]

I'm currently writing a song about this. It's more focused on peace to nature than hate to the government. I uploaded the first verse, check it out:
https://soundcloud.com/atonomousmusic/unnaturalized

Lyrics:

Unnaturalized, pawn some respect,
withdraw from the net,
wake from the flaws in the bed,
move to Swiss with my mom and my cat
I need a place where I can always forget.
No street lights but stars instead
where the love is in and the grades are out,
where I can drink milk straight from the cow.
Where the greed's gone, no grief thrown, and I can see the sea flowin'
Maybe dive in it,
and that's all I need to get high for a minute.
I need a place where a smile isn't sinnin'.
A place where my only guide is the river.
Insomnia but the night is infinite,
so it's alright, in the daylight we go chillin,
I need a heartbeat that I finally fit in,
yes I wanna find that rythm

[magnolia1973]

I think the healthcare system is fucked up in terms of trying to extend lives, but it is what the consumer wants. I'm like WTF? when I see how my dad lives. I feel so terribly for him. I would not put an animal through that. But yet, we ask for it. We are OK to pay for it. I think it is well meaning- "extending lives" but.... $1200 a pop antibiotics to keep someone too weak to eat from getting overwhelmed by infection is really off kilter. My friends father had a lung transplant in his mid 70's and died without ever regaining consciousness- over a million dollars to kill him.

And it hurts family members to keep loved ones propped up. I see my mom adding up the dollars. Getting stressed and losing her own health in the quest to "extend the life" of someone who doesn't have anything left. Heartbreaking, because we don't want to say "let him go". She sees her quality of life declining and knows his death would be a relief, but can't bring herself to act on it...because there is always another option to keep the existence going.

So help me, if anyone ever sticks a tube in me, I will strangle them with my last strength.

[paleodog]

Thank you Unamused Mouse. I am new to Paleo and while not having panic attacks definitley feeling the "conspiracy"

[whitebear]

I think the healthcare system is fucked up in terms of trying to extend lives, but it is what the consumer wants. I'm like WTF? when I see how my dad lives. I feel so terribly for him. I would not put an animal through that. But yet, we ask for it. We are OK to pay for it. I think it is well meaning- "extending lives" but.... $1200 a pop antibiotics to keep someone too weak to eat from getting overwhelmed by infection is really off kilter. My friends father had a lung transplant in his mid 70's and died without ever regaining consciousness- over a million dollars to kill him.

And it hurts family members to keep loved ones propped up. I see my mom adding up the dollars. Getting stressed and losing her own health in the quest to "extend the life" of someone who doesn't have anything left. Heartbreaking, because we don't want to say "let him go". She sees her quality of life declining and knows his death would be a relief, but can't bring herself to act on it...because there is always another option to keep the existence going.

So help me, if anyone ever sticks a tube in me, I will strangle them with my last strength.

We only think it's what we want because we are programmed to do so. Most people are unaware of or refuse to acknowledge alternatives.