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Thread: Eat More Fat! The Nutritional Ketosis Challenge continues... page 20

  1. #191
    jenn26point2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebbles67 View Post
    My Fitness Pal & BMR I just discovered a major flaw in the way MFP calculates BMR. The calculator on the site only gives you your "coma calories" burn, and clearly says that daily activity is not counted. It then says that it's Mifflin-St joer calculation is more accurate than Harris Benedict. BUT the purpose of Harris Benedict is to calculate your activity calories. Somebody messed up.

    MFP gives me 1765 BMR. I multiplied by 1.375 for less active days.
    Min Daily Calorie need 2427
    I choose to eat 1850 cals about 20% below. On heavy work out days up to 40% below

    IMO everyone should at least eat enough to hit their base BMR without activity, though others I'm sure will disagree.

    Harris Benedict tells us to multiply the base BMR by the following:
    To determine your total daily calorie needs, multiply your BMR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

    If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2
    If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375
    If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55
    If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725
    If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9
    So Paula, because I don't want to "exaggerate" what I do on a daily basis, I want to ask your opinion (and PaleoBird as she's kind of our resident expert).

    I go to the gym 4-5 days a week. I do squats, lunges, pushups, body rows, then I use a box and do an isolation workout where I push up onto the box with one leg (step up) 20x, with each leg, twice. Then I do bridges and lateral leg raises. (aside from the upper body work, this is all in an attempt to get my "glutes turned on" so I can run better) I do these exercises "circuit" style, moving from one movement to the next without rest. I follow this with a 20 minute walk (1 mile). I do this 2-3 x a week. The other days I'll either walk 3 miles or walk a mile and ride the bike for 30 minutes. MFP says I burn roughly 200-300 on non-strength days and 300-500 calories on strength days. Does this constitute "light" or "moderate" activity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gay Panda View Post
    You're welcome!

    This thread moves insanely fast!!!
    ^agreed! Hard to keep up!
    Primal since March 5, 2012
    SW: 221 | CW: 182 | LPW: 166 | UGW: 140 (80 lbs loss)




  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebbles67 View Post
    Macros or Calories?

    There are two important points here:
    1) The purpose of the EMF protocol is to reach a ketogenic state. You need a high percentage of fat (70+%) and a low carb count to reach Nutritional Ketosis. So for me the first aim would be to hit the fat macro.

    2)BUT, It is also important to not over eat in the calorie arena. Try and stay a minimum of 10% below your BMR plus activity burn rate. If you have maxed out calories for the day and percentages are not right, then you should just try again the next day.

    ***For many of us, it took several weeks to find the right food combos that allowed us to hit our fat goal within our calorie max.
    Thx pebbles my normal cals are 1350, ratio 17-3-80 but went off menu yesterday and end up with 1239 cals ratio 19-7-74.

    I have found the best way to do this WOE is to check the numbers in the evening & then add the appropriate fat (macadamia nuts or coconut oil) to hit the 80%. A normal portion of coconut oil (25g) took me to cal 1439 ratio 16-6-78. Not being able face more oil I then had 25g nuts which took me to a final 1626 15-6-79. today I will keep the ratio & drop the cals to balance things out.

    I work my BMR out based on LBM (1372) before activity & try to stick to that with a fat intake of 80% (as I have been stalling for weeks on 70%) & I figure any activity will give me a calorie deficit. The 7lb loss last week (1st week on EMF) seems to suggest these numbers are right for me. I'm very interested to see if the next 4 wks will confirm this.

    PS: My biggest problem with food is that if I buy a treat (eg a bar of 90% chocolate or some cheese) I end up eating it all at once rather than portion it out over a number of days. I would love to be able to have something in the house & enjoy it over a period of time rather than feel I shouldn't really have bought it & need to get it out of the way so I can 'Start again tomorrow'. I am hoping this WOE will help me. This week I have managed to portion out the berries over 3 days & the battle of the grapefruit last night was won - simply to avoid upsetting the macros even further. So thanks for running this thread. It's got me back into tracking & come to terms with the fact that eating fat on its own really is ok.
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 02-02-2013 at 11:42 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenn26point2 View Post
    So Paula, because I don't want to "exaggerate" what I do on a daily basis, I want to ask your opinion (and PaleoBird as she's kind of our resident expert).
    You are in the same boat as I am. I decided to use light activity as my general marker, but honestly I think we both spend a lot of time in the moderate area. The BodyMediaFit will really help with this. My cals with light activity are 2427. I aim for about 1900 cals. So on light workout days I am solidly 20% below my burn and on heavy workout days up to 40%. This also allows me leeway to eat more if my body needs it. My BMF device tells me that I never burn less than 2500 now.

  4. #194
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    Ddraig Goch Your plan looks great. I too moved up to 80% on Jan 16th. It has really helped with cravings and I finally got into deep ketosis. There are a lot of treat like things in my house. None of my guys are Primal (husband and 3 sons). I am avoiding anything sweet right now due to lack of control. Someday, I too hope to be able to have some dark chocolate or berries without going crazy.

    EDIT: At the end of my day I add CO to my tea if I need more fat. Not in love with the "oil slick" on top, but I have gotten used to it.
    Last edited by Pebbles67; 02-03-2013 at 04:30 AM.

  5. #195
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    Morning all! Someone on here mentioned that Ketostix aren't really accurate (I think it was back in the January post though). I'm curious about this. I had 6 carbs on Friday and was purple yesterday. I had 17 carbs yesterday and was moderate this morning. I'm trying to fine tune my fats and carbs in a spreadsheet so I'm better able to determine what puts me where but if they aren't accurate then I need to know that there might be some fluctuation. I can share the spreadsheet when I'm done if anyone wants a copy. Nothing fancy though.

    Megan

  6. #196
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    My memory on the ketostix is that the amount of fluid you take in can have a great effect on the depth of color. Also, I seem to remember that Paleobird mentioned that the longer you are in NK the less likely it is to show up on the sticks. Pretty sure the only really accurate way is to blood test using a glucose type meter with the sticks to test for ketones.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by mks8500 View Post
    Morning all! Someone on here mentioned that Ketostix aren't really accurate (I think it was back in the January post though). I'm curious about this. I had 6 carbs on Friday and was purple yesterday. I had 17 carbs yesterday and was moderate this morning. I'm trying to fine tune my fats and carbs in a spreadsheet so I'm better able to determine what puts me where but if they aren't accurate then I need to know that there might be some fluctuation. I can share the spreadsheet when I'm done if anyone wants a copy. Nothing fancy though.

    Megan
    From Phinney & Volek:

    Urine is the most common method used to track ketosis because it is the cheapest and easiest test. Reagent strips (dipsticks) containing sodium nitroprusside dipped in urine change to varying shades of purple in proportion to the level of AcAc (and to some extent acetone) present. The degree of color change provides a semi-quantitative measure of ketone concentration in urine, but this test has been found to inaccurately reflect actual blood ketone concentrations in several studies[68]. This is because keto-adaptation involves complex changes in the way the kidneys filter blood and thus excretion of ketones. As a result, urine ketones may decrease even as blood values stay in the desirable range. Therefore, although this method is practical and relatively inexpensive, its results should be viewed with a considerable degree of caution.

    Blood tests for ketones are more definitive since they measure the concentration of BOHB, AcAc, or both, where it is most important – directly in your circulation. This can be done by having your blood drawn (usually requiring a doctor’s order) and sending it to an expensive clinical laboratory. A faster and more practical method is available by means of home blood testing devices that assess BOHB in blood obtained from a finger stick. For example, Precision Xtra® (Abbott Diabetes Care, Inc) and Nova Max® Plus (Nova Biomedical) are reasonably priced devices (~$20) available ‘over-the-counter’ that can test for levels of BOHB and glucose in a matter of seconds. However, reagent strips for BOHB are relatively expensive (~$3 to 5 per strip) if purchased at retail drug stores. On eBay, however, it is possible to buy these same blood ketone strips for $1-2 each.

    Even this reduced price may seem like a lot to pay to test your individual response, but this investment for a few months of testing provides valuable feedback on whether you are in the right ketone zone. Think about it: what if minor changes in your intake of carbs and/or protein could boost you from 0.4 millimolar BOHB to 2.0 millimolar? At this lower level, ketones are doing little to feed your brain or help you build muscle, whereas at or above 2.0 millimolar BOHB, both would be working strongly in your favor. Is this worth paying $20 for the test meter, $2 per test, and pricking your fingertip once per day for a month or two? Based upon our experience working with many people, we think that the answer is “yes”.

    There are also devices in development that will test the concentration of acetone in breath; which in turn has been shown to correlate well with blood ketones[69]. This breath test is better than urine ketones because the lungs don’t filter the acetone. In all likelihood, one or more breath ketone analyzers will be commercially available soon. When they are, you’ll have a hand-held device that you can blow into and know your body’s ketone level in less than a minute. What will this device save you? The cost per test likely will be about the same as the Abbott device, so all you’ll save with a breath analyzer would be biting you lip and pricking a fingertip. The current bottom line: don’t hold your breath waiting for the breath analyzer.

    Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (p. 93). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.
    Last edited by Annlee; 02-03-2013 at 06:28 AM.

  8. #198
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    After two days of an awful stomach bug, i'm back on plan. The first day I ate some white rice then realized that I may not have a bug but maybe a healing crisis after eating primal for a month. Maybe my body cleansing. But that night I had fever and aches so maybe it was a bug. I felt dehydrated after sitting on the potty for two days. Last night I transitioned back into food with a scrambled egg and a Yukon gold potato.

    This morning I feel like I'm back! No trips to the potty in the middle of the night. I'm testing with a cup of decaf and cream. I didn't have caffeine yesterday and thought I might go without it. Caffeinated coffee is a habit I picked up in December. I think I might like how I feel better without it, but I will miss the caffeine rush!

    I forgot to mention, the bug was good for another pound. We'll see if it sticks. At least it's my first February pound! 😉
    Last edited by calee; 02-03-2013 at 06:43 AM.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmSuzyQ View Post
    Hi - I'm new to MDA & Primal/Paleo lifestyle. I got interested in changing my diet after reading The 4-Hr Body which promotes a slow-carb diet (hi-prot, lentils/legumes/veg/nuts/seeds/fats & no fruit). I just finished my 3rd week with stalled results (stopped doing cardio but did BodyPump to maintain muscle since starting & may have enjoyed cheat days a little too much), but have kept 5 lbs off since wk #1.

    This is a great site (amongst others) with tons of great info & I'm now thinking of going Primal & omitting legumes & adding back small quantities of fruit.

    After doing my research (something I always do before making the leap) and reading this particular thread in its entirety, I can't help but notice some common themes:

    1 - Many of you seem to be too careful with lowering carbs too much (hardly any mention of veggies but for avocados)
    2 - increasing fats to the detriment of protein (isn't the point of Primal to keep protein up for satiety & increase/maintain muscle - ditto for fats)
    3 - a lot of IF to the point where it seems obssessive - would this not lower metabolism too much where body will hang on to fat slowing down weightloss
    4 - not much talk of re-feeding which would prevent plateaus
    5 - the obsession with COUNTING & LOWERING CALORIES! I thought the whole point of Paleo/Primal was to enjoy your food in adopting this lifestyle.

    I'm getting the impression that weight loss can only be done by lowering calories, which I thought was counter-productive in the Primal lifestyle.

    BTW - I also read thread on eating more fat which brought on this new thread.

    All of the above is an objective observation with no malice intended...just concern.

    I'm 50 yrs, 5'2"
    CW 176 lbs
    GW ?
    We are lowering carb sufficiently for ketosis. Perhaps check out the book: "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance". Great stuff.

    I, personally, have insulin resistance and the PCOS that comes with it. My sugar metabolism is pretty trashed. I am resting it. I ate basically primal for over a year first before starting this. I lost 32 lbs very slowly. I still had about 15 or so lbs to go with no loss for 3 months. So I'm basically kicking it up a notch.

    We are not increasing fats to the detriment of protein. Rather to the detriment of carbs. Fats are an excellent energy source like carbs, yet are also necessary nutrients and building blocks, unlike carbs. Protein is being eaten at a moderate level, the aim is for sufficient protein to cover its building block work, for muscle repair etc, but not excessive amounts that cause the body to turn it I to sugar. Indeed, my little app recommends less protein than I eat on this diet actually.

    IF doesn't lower metabolism, overall calorie consumption (averaged out over a period of days) can if it is low. I don't really IF- well I often don't eat after supper- around 5. So I may get 14 or 15 hours between supper and my coffee a lot of the time. But it's not something my body balks at except when my hormones are getting to me, and I go ahead and eat when they are

    I'm doing this to break a plateau. Carb refeeding is not useful for ketosis. For just low carb, maybe. But actual ketosis is a whole Nother ball game. It's not something you want to hop in and out of, doing that is hard on your body.

    Re: calories. Calories DO matter . BUT, if you start out just lowering calories and eating the same, and you have sugar metabolism issues, you're gonna have a bad time but first get your kinds of foods right, then, if you need to make further adjustments. Now if I ate primal and did not count calories, as I've done for over a year, I'd probably eventually lose all my weight, but I bet it would take 2-3 years total. The less you have to lose, the harder it gets, and often you DO have to count calories to get the last of it off.

    Ketosis + calorie counting is simply an extremely powerful tool for fat loss for those of us with particularly sticky fat. Ketosis is also therapeutic for certain ailments that some here have, as mentioned.

    So basically, for me, what I am doing is temporary, resting my sugar metabolism, doing that last bit of leaning down and then I'll be back to carbs to see how I do. A LOT of people have gone low car. And then ketosis and then back to carbs and were then able to handle the carbs in their world again. A great way to fix insulin resistance (as long as you are earn g "real food"- it doesn't seem that Atkins people have that same success of going back to carbs, because they usually eat crap low carb foods, and to back to crap high carb foods.

    That said, I do not think this way of eating is bad to stay on indefinitely, that's not why I'm only don g it temporarily. I just like to eat so I dot want to stay this limited on my food forever. I like to garden and my favorite foods are probably watermelon and potatoes I have about 6 or 7 watermelon varieties I'm planting this year.

    So, in short, this is a powerful tool for weight loss and fixing the sugar metabolism. And those to hand in hand. And for some of us, you'll notice mostly women as we ladies have a harder time losing fat than men, especially middle aged women we need this level of work to lose that weight. I cant easily maintai. Without calorie counting and all that, but im not losing.

    A whacky sugar metabolism goes into a lot of illnesses, from arthritis to back pain to carpel tunnel to Alzheimer's to excessive aging and pretty much any kind of inflammatory issue. This is the most powerful way I know to really get a grip on that problem.

    And lastly, I'm running a 10k in march. Ketosis has been shown to somewhat improve athletic perirmance so there's a bit of experimenting there.

    HTH
    Last edited by AshleyL; 02-03-2013 at 06:48 AM.

  10. #200
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    I find ketostix useful at the beginning of an NK program to see if one is on the right track. I just used them this morning to check if I had re entered ketosis after having sweet potato on Friday. Glad to say i saw dark purple.

    I covet the blood monitor in Annlee's quote above.

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