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Thread: How My Primal Instincts Led Me to... Veganism page 8

  1. #71
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    If you're OK with meat-eating, per se, you could also just put a lot more effort into finding the real deal that won't give you any qualms. Maybe make a trip out of driving a long distance to a farm. We don't all have farmer's markets with reliable meat vendors to visit every week, but why go vegan out of convenience? I mean you can even buy meat on the internet! It doesn't even have to be a staple of your diet... Putting money towards supporting responsible practices is a far better statement than withholding your dollars. I think people who go so far as veganism to protest a cruel industry are commendable, but misguided.

  2. #72
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    If our OP has not already seen this, I thought I would post a similar argument as posed at the Ancestral Health Symposium in 2011: "Ancestral nutrition: An alternative approach" by Don Matesz, MA, MS on Vimeo

    The presenter went very high in meat and then said he felt lousy. He doesn't posit the lousy feeling on a lack of carbs, a lack of starch or anything that most people would consider the traditional argument for "why high fat diets are bad." He seems to base his arguement on the fact that he was lacking certain key nutrients and he was extremely low in antioxidants. Adding back vegetables in large quantities, eating leafy greens, fruits, flowers, nuts, ect. he says raised his levels of these key compounds in his body which reversed a lot of bad symptoms he was experiencing.

    It sounds like he went almost totally vegan for a while but then slowly, added back a (very) minimal amount of animal products. The drastic increase in vegetable and plant matter consumption, he says, allowed him to add these animal products back because within the context of a diet low in antioxidants, animal products cause a lot of damaging oxidative stress, but in the context of a very high antioxidant and nutrient rich diet, animal products can be minimally incorporated for their beneficial amino acid profiles. But without this high level of antioxidants in the diet, animal products do more harm than good.

    I hope I am interpreting this right. He uses, as most vegans and vegetarians would, apes as his primary evidence to support his argument. He talks about eating meat because chimps DO eat meat, but of course they eat very little of it and only in times where plant matter is more difficult to come by. This is probably why he decided to reincorporate some small amount of animal foods.

  3. #73
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    YOu missed a point about chickens- they are not forced to lay eggs or impregnated. They just do. If you can find pastured chickens, all you are killing is the bugs they eat. And there are good people in this world. The lady I buy my meat and eggs from is a good person. I talk to her, she is sincere, invites me to the farm.

    It;s all good....just don't let yourself skew holier than thou. It doesn't make you better or more moral than your fellow man because you are a vegan. I've met and known many a vegan who excused all sorts of bad behavior by playing their vegan card.... they justified it as a means to judge. Bothered the living hell out of me when I was vegan.

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  4. #74
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    The lifestyle comes with a built-in self-righteous attitude. You have to have a self-righteous God complex to believe you are above Mother Nature.
    This....
    And a lot of those people aren't above misinformation. I remember my last straw was a vegan who took issue with my horse. The cruelty I was invoking by being her master. And I was like WTF? My horse could kill or trample me at any time. She could easily jump the fence and run away. Instead, she wanders up to me looking food and pets. She was telling my boyfriend how horses are regularly beaten.... it was bizarre to see someone so certain about something they had actually no clue about.

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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndChance View Post
    IMO Animals possess something humans too often lack: a sense of what really matters in life.
    Animals are really just concerned with eating, fucking, sleeping, and shitting. Probably in that order. I agree that doing those things proficently are among the things that matter in life and if humans were better at those four things, I think our lives would be much happier and healthier. But I don't think animals have a 'sense' about what they're doing...they act on instinct, based on what is programmed into their genes.

    So why not support some local ethical farms who let their animals eat, fuck, sleep, and shit in the happiest, healthiest ways, followed by a much faster and more humane death than nature would ever provide. Animals in the wild do not live to be 'old and happy'. Once they aren't on top of their game, something comes along and rips out their flesh, bite by bite, with sharp teeth. That's not my idea of a happy ending.
    Last edited by BestBetter; 01-25-2013 at 06:45 PM.

  6. #76
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    I wrote my feelings about vegetarianism a while back on paleohacks, and I still stand by that post. If you really want to avoid all unnecessary suffering, then why live at all? Every part of our lives is death. The fact that we live in houses, or apartments, drive cars, or use transit, eat, breathe, live..the fact that we even exist AT ALL is DEATH. Life is a constant cycle, a dance of living and dying.

    I appreciate your compassion. That has come from mindful thought, and meaningful introspection. You are questioning your position on this planet, and who is anyone to berate or judge you for that?

    I don't believe animals 'know what really matters in life'. They do not possess the same consciousness as humans. They survive on instinct. You could say however, that animals are excellent at being in the moment, and being fully present. But that's because it is all they know... their lack of that which says "Oh, snap...gotta make sure I get enough grass in mah belly so baby cow can have some milk", or "Oh man, I gotta take a dump. Oh look, here's a good spot". They have survival instincts and nothing more. They do not possess the "I" that is Ego. But humans do. It is our detriment as well as our ally.

    I think primal/paleo people are perhaps the most compassionate of all omnivores. We actually care about where our meat comes from and how it affects our planet, and how it affects the animal, the farmer, the earth. Granted, is isn't entirely self-less: we know that particular meat is probably better for us too. But the fact that we take the time to actually think, and make informed choices, THAT says a lot about us (well, most of us).

    I find it insulting when vegetarians/vegans (and I'm not speaking directly to you 2ndchance) insinuate that eating meat means hating animals. I have raised my two cats from whence they were kittens. They are part of my family. That is not the same thing as eating beef, pork or chicken. That is an entirely different relationship. Yes, that animal was raised to be slaughtered for my benefit. But that is because meat and fat are king in terms of nourishment and sustaining health. Talk about #firstworldproblems. Only in the Western world can we debate the 'politics' of eating meat. I think it's silly.

    I'd rather meditate on loving-kindness for 20 minutes a day and send that positive energy to all creatures, including those I will ingest. That I feel, is a better way to spend my existence. We can talk about whether or not eating meat is ethical, and I admit, I love the conversation at hand. It makes us more aware, and it make us think about our choices in this life. At the end of the day, these are opinions we offer, not facts, but feelings only. It is one big circle jerk. As we grow as individuals, we become more aware of our existence on this earth, and how we may live it more fully, more respectfully, more compassionately, more mindfully. We begin to question our choices. You have questioned yours. I do not begrudge anyone this journey. Questioning one's morals, one's path is yours and yours alone. No one can sway you from your own choice at the end of the day. I wish you all the best on your journey, 2ndchance. We'll still be here should you need some help I cannot speak for your journey, just as you cannot speak for mine. That is beauty in and of itself. It is yours only.

    I wish you only the very best. We are here if and when you need us I send my brightest blessings, and my goodwill to you!
    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

    Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

  7. #77
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    OP, I hope you're taking a B12 supplement because even pro-Vegan "experts" know you can't get that from plants. (Which is one reason that I think vegetarianism makes more sense.)

    I figure that we all choose what we eat whether we're Vegan, Vegetarian, Omnivore, or Carnivore. I don't think any one of those should feel superior to the others.

    As far as Grok thinking, "Hey, I want a banana," and then going out and finding one, well I find that an unlikely scanario. More like modern human thinks, "Hey, I want a banana," and then goes to the corner store to find one. Grok ate what was on hand or s/he starved. In some areas, when it was cold, vegetation might be hard to come by. In others, vegetation was plentiful year round.

    There's a whole world of food out there. Someone once posted that food should be for nourishment and not for entertainment. I think it's both. A beautiful steak cooked just right, a red juice spurting burger, oysters floating in a creamy broth, a BAS made with care and beautiful veggies - nourishment all, but don't we smile when we eat them?

    If the wheat and corn grown in this country weren't so questionable, I might indugle more than once or twice a month. Except for health purposes, I find it a little odd to completely vilify any one food group. Decreasing a food for its lack of nutrients is fine as is increasing a food that is laden with nutrients.

    As to the ethics, my understanding is that about the same amount of old growth forests have been cleared to grow soybeans as have been cleared to raise CAFO beef. Also, is a wolf or lion unethical because it eats meat? Our teeth are made for both shredding of meat and grinding of veggies. But we're not slaves to our biology.

    Eat foods not laden with chemicals. Move a little. Lift stuff. Pull yourself up into the occasional tree. Get some sun. Sleep the sleep of the innocent. Play. Which section of the Vegan ----> Carnivore spectrum one lives is completely up to the individual. And taking the middle road isn't always a bad thing.

    Good luck in your new journey.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

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  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    Animals are really just concerned with eating, fucking, sleeping, and shitting. Probably in that order. I agree that doing those things proficently are among the things that matter in life and if humans were better at those four things, I think our lives would be much happier and healthier. But I don't think animals have a 'sense' about what they're doing...they act on instinct, based on what is programmed into their genes.

    So why not support some local ethical farms who let their animals eat, fuck, sleep, and shit in the happiest, healthiest ways, followed by a much faster and more humane death than nature would ever provide. Animals in the wild do not live to be 'old and happy'. Once they aren't on top of their game, something comes along and rips out their flesh, bite by bite, with sharp teeth. That's not my idea of a happy ending.
    +1,000,000 best post I've read this week

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    Animals are really just concerned with eating, fucking, sleeping, and shitting. Probably in that order. I agree that doing those things proficently are among the things that matter in life and if humans were better at those four things, I think our lives would be much happier and healthier. But I don't think animals have a 'sense' about what they're doing...they act on instinct, based on what is programmed into their genes.

    So why not support some local ethical farms who let their animals eat, fuck, sleep, and shit in the happiest, healthiest ways, followed by a much faster and more humane death than nature would ever provide. Animals in the wild do not live to be 'old and happy'. Once they aren't on top of their game, something comes along and rips out their flesh, bite by bite, with sharp teeth. That's not my idea of a happy ending.
    You put this very bluntly. I love it. Thank you.
    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

    Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    So why not support some local ethical farms who let their animals eat, fuck, sleep, and shit in the happiest, healthiest ways, followed by a much faster and more humane death than nature would ever provide. Animals in the wild do not live to be 'old and happy'. Once they aren't on top of their game, something comes along and rips out their flesh, bite by bite, with sharp teeth. That's not my idea of a happy ending.
    Hey, that's Groks lifestyle as well; bellum omnium contra omnes, those were the days...

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