How My Primal Instincts Led Me to... Veganism page 11

[zoebird]

[QUOTE=2ndChance;1073351]to be honest, I would like to one day grow my own food and know for certain that I am not inflicting suffering on anyone. [quote]

A great place to get started is a community garden. most of them are organic, reclaimed land, and diverse people taking care of the plots together. You get a lot of produce, learn about what is seasonal, and meet like minded people. You also learn all kinds of gardening skills, which is useful if you want to extend your process in growing your own food.

Also, look into foraging. We did some foraging today -- mussels and also seaweed, parsley, rosemary, dandelion greens, and fennel. There's a lot of fruit, nuts, and veg out there -- right in front of us! There are some wild blackberries at a park near our offices, so I'll be going there with DS on Monday to pick some more.

One thing that really strikes me, and that I and the OP would probably agree, is the disconnect with the animals we eat, for most people. I believe that everyone should be prepared to take a life if they wish to subsist on it. Too many kids eating chicken nuggets who have no idea about the life that was given (if indeed, there is any chicken in it:-) )

{snip}

Perhaps a dream, but I really believe that this primal/paleo/real food movement can change the world, we just need to see ourselves as guerillas, doing all we can to affect change in our own small way, in our localities and with our friends.

I agree. And guerilla gardening is another opportunity to grow food, too. DS is quite aware of where his food comes from, because we live in a very agrarian place -- lots of talk of how it all goes down. And, we have visited farms, too. A lot of families here keep chickens (urban chickens), and have to kill them at some point and then do eat them.

I think a lot of kiwis are foodies, though. I mean, today was foraging heaven out here by our house -- so many people foraging seaweed, mussels, paua, and fishing. That and home gardening is just a way of life here.

A few days ago I realized I had been basically vegan for the last few months. It started with cutting out dairy for health reasons. It's been summer the last few months in Australia and the thought of cooking and eating meat and eggs in hot or humid weather makes me ill. I also have always disliked seafood. So yeah, I kind of realized no dairy + no meat, seafood or eggs = vegan. I actually feel better eating lighter foods and have had some benefits. If I feel like eating some meat and eggs when the cooler weather comes back around I will though.

I think this is largely about eating seasonally. In summer, I'm more likely to have much more produce (and more diverse produce) and lighter fare, and then I tend to heavier foods in winter.

I understand it's also been unbearably hot this summer in Aussie!

Not necessarily. I know of one vegan family that incorporated animals into their garden/urban farming. They don't eat them or any of their products, just use their feces and what not so they can get around fossil fuels and/or meal. It's not easy at all, but doable.

Yes, and one of my friends makes a vegan compost that uses his own manure as well, so. . . there are options.

-----
For my own part. . .

I would be interested to see how it goes for you.

I was vegan for 5-6 years, in a way similar to what you describe. I was eating mostly fruits and veggies, some grains (quinoa, millet, oats -- some sprouted bread), and legumes (lentils, kidney and black beans were most common), as well as sprouted beans and seeds, as well as some nuts and seeds.

I really enjoyed it, but -- as others have said of their own vegan journeys -- my health ultimately didn't fare well. I am now paleo. I don't do legumes or the grains anymore (though quinoa and millet are technically seeds, so I don't mind doing them on occasion -- yes, I read the recent quinoa articles, too. we still have some on the shelves, so. . . we will finish it).

I added back in eggs. The first batches were from my friend's chickens. they were pets. Nice girls. I'd love to have my own someday! Then I added meat back in. That's been beneficial. And bone broths, that's really done wonders.

We have diversified our palate to include more fish/seafood. So, we are learning to fish/forage as well. We can get these things right outside our front door, so we might as well.

And, I'm looking to do more community gardening. I have to find one in our suburb, though. Or start one.

[whitebear]

How is an argument an invalid point of view on the simple basis that it might be wrong? According to your logic, every argument is invalid.

I think you answered your own question. A legitimate argument would be based on facts and real evidence. Your argument is pure speculation based on your own assumptions. I will say no more.

[quikky]

I think you answered your own question. A legitimate argument would be based on facts and real evidence. Your argument is pure speculation based on your own assumptions. I will say no more.

ar·gu·ment [ahr-gyuh-muhnt] noun
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3. a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.
4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
5. an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.

As you can see, an argument is a point of view, period. If an argument is legitimate only if it is based on facts, then there can be no legitimate argument about an abstract or theoretical topic which by definition is not factual. Sorry, try again.

[whitebear]

ar·gu·ment [ahr-gyuh-muhnt] noun
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3. a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.
4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
5. an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.

As you can see, an argument is a point of view, period. If an argument is legitimate only if it is based on facts, then there can be no legitimate argument about an abstract or theoretical topic which by definition is not factual. Sorry, try again.

LEGITIMATE is the key word here. What good is an argument that you can't back up with truth. How wonderful it would be if we could go around making stuff up and claiming it as gospel. Oh wait, that's what they call religion. You can make up any load of crap made up argument you want but that dose not make it legitimate. The line between fact and fiction,guess,assumption is quite clear. Sorry, but you can make stuff up all you want and yes it will be your argument but that dose not make it applicable to reality.

[cori93437]

Just a point of clarification- dairy cows are kept almost perpetually pregnant to support the perpetual lactation. The laying hens are just ovulating. Commercial eggs are almost never fertilized.

I'm with Ayla. There is a lot of crap that goes on in the meat and dairy industry, but we are omnivores by nature, and you can find ethically-raised meat and dairy. In fact, buying a dozen eggs a week from a neighbor with chickens might just help that neighbor afford to keep the chickens.

Actually dairy cows are not kept perpetually pregnant.
They have one pregnancy per year just as is natural for their wild counter parts such as deer for instance.
One seasonal pregnancy.
What man has bred into them is prolonged and increased lactation, where their lactation period has become of longer duration, and of greater capacity, than required for simply raising an offspring.

The seasons are managed a bit different since they need to keep sections of the herd lactating year round and they don't want all cows drying off in preparation for the next birth at the same time... but the process is exactly same.

The cows I get milk from live outside on pasture all day every day... barring hurricanes and other inclement weather they wish to seek shelter inside the barn in... they lead a lovely life, birth a calf each year much as nature intended cows to do... and even are allowed to nurse that calf for portion of the day naturally up to a certain number of months when the calf is then weaned(not an abnormally early age, it is fully capable of eating on it's own and requires no further bottle supplementation).

[quikky]

LEGITIMATE is the key word here. What good is an argument that you can't back up with truth. How wonderful it would be if we could go around making stuff up and claiming it as gospel. Oh wait, that's what they call religion. You can make up any load of crap made up argument you want but that dose not make it legitimate. The line between fact and fiction,guess,assumption is quite clear. Sorry, but you can make stuff up all you want and yes it will be your argument but that dose not make it applicable to reality.

I didn't claim my argument was gospel or indisputable fact, it was simply my argument.

Also, the legitimacy of an argument is its logical cohesion, not whether it's based on facts. For example, since you brought up religion, you can make a logical, i.e. valid argument against or for the existence of God without, obviously, any facts.

Lastly, my argument was indeed based on facts. The individual pieces that composed my argument was mostly fact, the deduction, however, is just my point of view.

[whitebear]

I didn't claim my argument was gospel or indisputable fact, it was simply my argument.

Also, the legitimacy of an argument is its logical cohesion, not whether it's based on facts. For example, since you brought up religion, you can make a logical, i.e. valid argument against or for the existence of God without, obviously, any facts.

Lastly, my argument was indeed based on facts. The individual pieces that composed my argument was mostly fact, the deduction, however, is just my point of view.

Okay, I can see that arguing is more important than the argument to you so you go on with your bad self. My point was just that you are only guessing that rape is a part of human nature and that it might have been a regular occurrence in groks days. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. People argue bullsh*t all the time. I like to think that rape is a product of our modern, twisted, sick society and that it's not in our nature. It's certainly not in mine and there is no arguing that.

[quikky]

Okay, I can see that arguing is more important than the argument to you so you go on with your bad self. My point was just that you are only guessing that rape is a part of human nature and that it might have been a regular occurrence in groks days. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. People argue bullsh*t all the time.

I don't want to discuss, as requested, this particular topic further, so I won't elaborate on it anymore. The argument itself was legitimate. You think it's bullshit, or the whole topic/idea is bullshit - fine. Doesn't change the legitimacy of what's argued.

[whitebear]

I don't want to discuss, as requested, this particular topic further, so I won't elaborate on it anymore. The argument itself was legitimate. You think it's bullshit, or the whole topic/idea is bullshit - fine. Doesn't change the legitimacy of what's argued.

Sure it dose. The fact remains that you basically made your argument up. That's all I am pointing out.

[quikky]

Sure it dose. The fact remains that you basically made your argument up. That's all I am pointing out.

Well yeah, I did make up my argument. Make up in terms of taking various factual pieces of information and putting them together into an argument; not making up in terms of fantasizing something completely illogical and baseless like saying Grok used to ride unicorns. I could be wrong, I could be right. You yourself said "maybe it was maybe it wasn't". You can't say "maybe it was" to an illegitimate argument. So... What are we arguing about exactly?