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Thread: Journal of a Weary Dragon page 15

  1. #141
    Ddraig Goch's Avatar
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    Hi Derektran

    As you can see from my long drawn out post above (why write a postcard when you can write a book lol) it wasn’t really an attempt at PSMF more a bit of trial & error based on some logic that made sense to me but others seemed to think was flawed (eat for your BMR or your metabolism will be shot forever – I should have remembered YMMV).

    NB: At the time I had found nothing on the internet to support my theory

    Having written it down I can see I was probably on the right track & should have taken the monthly cycle into account. (NB: I have never tracked daily before so I have no idea what effect the hormone issue has on me).

    But I admit, I am happier at my current protein level and believe it to be sustainable long term. Since the Ketogenic Ratio for my meals with the higher protein is 2.7 I guess I should still be in deep NK.

    I am enjoying the extra cals this week so will stick with the slightly higher cals over the next month regardless of what happens.

    Just out of interest how many calories are you doing? I believe when the time comes I can do PSMF on 645 cal as that is the lowest I can go whilst keeping the KR above 1.5.

    The only thing that really worries me about PSMF is the long tem effect on the metabolism (I don’t want to be eating 1000 cals for life lol – that thought was really what panicked me when I started gaining I think even thought its illogical that you could continue to gain over the long term on 1130 cals) so I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebbles67 View Post
    Ddraig Goch,

    I hope this plan works out for you. Keep us posted.
    Thanks Pebbles.Will do

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
    Thanks but I’m in the UK. I have found a place in Germany that’s reasonable & quick but the shipping cost is not. Also if I’m going got test I would want to be able to do it daily for 3 months to start so it adds up



    A bit about me
    A bit about my NK n=1
    Starting macros: Pg 46 Cg 6 Fg 102 Cals 1129 Ratio 17-3-80
    Wk 1 wt 174 BF (based on BIA monitor) 40.7% LBM 103.2lb Loss: -4
    Wk 1 Av Macros: Pg 46.0, Cg 6.0, Fg 102.0 Cals 1129 Ratio 16-2-82
    Wk 2 wt 170 BF (based on BIA monitor) 40.0% LBM 102.0lb Loss: -2
    Wk 2 Av Macros: Pg 45.9, Cg 6.5, Fg 101.7 Cals 1133.5 Ratio 16-2-82
    Wk 3 wt 168* BF (based on BIA monitor) 39.3% LBM 102.0lb Gain: +2
    Wk 3 Av Macros: Pg 46.8, Cg 6.1, Fg 106.4 Cals 1174.6 Ratio 16-2-82

    During these 3 weeks, PG & Cg remained within 2g daily whilst cals fluctuated between 700 & 2000 (1 day only).

    *lowest wt in 20 years


    I don’t mind stalling but I don’t want to gain. Having gained steadily over Wk 3 I admit now I probably panicked & have moved cals up to 1350 (poss BMR – 20%) & protein up to 55%. This to me is a sustainable level of protein (in one of the pposts it’s the only problem I had with the WOE long term)
    During week 1 and 2, were you experiencing a "whoosh" by any chance? I can graph of what my weight loss looked like during my PSMF (or even my initial fat loss on LC) if you want. But what I typically find is I stall for a few days or couple weeks, then weight drops drastically over night and continues for a day or two. And then it rises back up. I'm talking -4 pounds and then +2 pounds. I'm completely convinced all of this has to do with water balance. The net loss for me during my PSMF was about 1.5lb a week, which is pretty good seeing as I don't have much more than 110lb lean body mass (small frame, not much exercise)

    But I do agree, YMMV. But I think your new plan should work! Just keep at it for a month at a time before you really assess whether or not it worked. Remember though, whenever you change anything about your diet, water balance tends to do crazy things. Your sodium intake will tend to change depending on what you eat, and more anecdotes about whooshes: now that I'm at a lower body fat %, whenever I do have a whoosh, there are noticeable changes, implying that the theory that your fat might will up with water while you are losing it just MIGHT be true.

    Anyways, when you assess whether what you are doing or not is working, take it over time, not just what happened in the last week. Figure out what your net loss is within the last few weeks and then do the math and see if it makes sense. For example, and I'm always hesitant to speak of calories as you know how I feel about absolute cals in vs absolute cals out, but... Lets say in the last 4 weeks you lose 8 lbs. You are eating adequate protein and not doing too much weight training so lets assume no muscle loss or gain. Going off the old 3500 cals per pound of fat then, that would be hopefully 14,000 calories of fat lost. Or a 55 gram deficit of fat a day. Then think about whether or not that adds up with what your metabolic rate is. Or better yet, this can give you a closer indication of what your maintenance should be (+55 grams fat or more a day, as we know adding more than that will probably just help you dissipate more heat). And then maybe think about what would happen if you dropped an additional 50 grams fat a day on top of that! Would it be twice as fast loss? Who knows, but it sounds enticing doesn't it?

    Just some things to think about! Food for thought if you will.

    Sorry to be hijacking your journal BTW!


    PS, if you WERE working out during week 3, I find that changing exercise regimen also does funky things with water balance. For example, going sedentary to lifting would make my muscles swell up and your muscles would try to hydrate themselves to aid in recovery. I tend to see a 1-3 lb gain over night if I go from doing nothing to kicking my own but with the weights.

  4. #144
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    Take a look at my last 20-ish days of weight loss. Keep in mind I'm down to my last few lbs of fat as well, so although it may look like my weight is incredibly low, again keep in mine up until now, I haven't really been exercising and weight training. Tests say I'm around 110 LBM.

    graph1.png

    The highest point was 132.9. The lowest it hit after 11 days of no movement was 126.8 almost over night! There was a slight gradual downward movement leading up to that but not much.And then in the next days following, it started to go up again. The dot above the 15th was the night after I started weight training. Water balance?

    But that kind of up and down (usually not that high of a up) is typical. And at first glance where I started and where I am doesn't look like much. But watch what happens when I zoom out.

    graph2.png

    Look pretty gradual over time huh?

    If you're wondering what I started at a high weight, compared to my blog... I wasn't particularly low carb during my 10 day Christmas trip . Plus there was lots of wedding planning, cake tasting, food tasting, etc. I know... excuses excuses And then that spike over Feb 9 was one of those infamous cheat days I talk about having every month and a half. The rest of the spikes were those typical random gains following a whoosh for the most part.

    Perhaps these were the gains you were seeing over week 3?



    Edit:

    I too use a BIA for day to day change tracking (as we know these tend to be good at tracking change but not absolute values of BF%). Take a look how concordant my weight fluctuations were with my water/fat ratios! They go right along with my whooshes

    graph3.png
    Last edited by derektran; 03-21-2013 at 09:28 PM.

  5. #145
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    You are probably right & the weight loss in wks 1 & 2 was a whoosh. I am beginning to think this is all about water balance as well e.g. I consumed 1800 cals yesterday, worked late so got only 2hrs sleep & gained 2lb this am. It has to be water – I’m simply not eating enough to gain fat.

    Because I have previously only tracked weekly before & never been quite as exact as I am now on calorie intake & totally ignore the hormonal cycle I realise now I need a couple of months of data before I do much else. It’s good to know you experienced ups & downs during PSMF (Thanks for the charts BTW. Haven’t had a chance to look at them properly yet but I will)

    Just for the record I haven’t added sodium to food for years so my intake is probably very low. When I started using butter for this WOE I had to get unsalted as the salted made me very weird.

    Apart from walking 5-8 miles daily I have been doing no other exercise as I have a long term shoulder injury that I am trying to sort out.

    Thanks again for your input & hijack away. You have been most helpful. I’m looking forward to seeing the next update in your blog.

  6. #146
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    You are probably right & the weight loss in wks 1 & 2 was a whoosh. I am beginning to think this is all about water balance as well e.g. I consumed 1800 cals yesterday, worked late so got only 2hrs sleep & gained 2lb this am. It has to be water – I’m simply not eating enough to gain fat.

    Because I have previously only tracked weekly before & never been quite as exact as I am now on calorie intake & totally ignore the hormonal cycle I realise now I need a couple of months of data before I do much else. It’s good to know you experienced ups & downs during PSMF (Thanks for the charts BTW. Haven’t had a chance to look at them properly yet but I will)

    Just for the record I haven’t added sodium to food for years so my intake is probably very low. When I started using butter for this WOE I had to get unsalted as the salted made me very weird.

    Apart from walking 5-8 miles daily I have been doing no other exercise as I have a long term shoulder injury that I am trying to sort out.

    Thanks again for your input & hijack away. You have been most helpful. I’m looking forward to seeing the next update in your blog.

    PS: Apart from a couple of oranges & a load of nuts (I am now staying off the nuts) I’m afraid I was dead boring over Christmas. Because I don’t eat grains or sugar in any form my cheat days (i.e. more calories than normal) used to consist of high protein & a big salad. Now they will consist of extra fat lol.

  7. #147
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    BTW, if you wanna get updates, I'm starting to use this FB page now, so like it to stay updates on new blog posts and what not: https://www.facebook.com/AsianWithoutRice (shameless plug haha)

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
    Ok this is definitely my last investigative post for a while (forgot to add it earlier).

    This post deals with the ketogenic ratio which determines if your meals are ketogenic:
    Ketogenic Ratio and Weight Loss » Sweet Geek

    That is the ratio of foods that raise ketones vs. the foods that lower ketones, i.e. produce glucose.

    Ketogenic Ratio (KR) = (Fat * .9 + Protein * .46) / (Carb + Protein * .58 + Fat * .1)

    Ketogenic Ratio Description
    < 1.0 Not ketogenic, if healthy you won’t register ketones
    1.0 – 1.5 Mildly ketogenic, you may register ketones at this level
    1.5 – 2.0 Ketogenic, most people will register ketones
    > 2.0 Very ketogenic, you should definitely see ketones in this range

    This does not take into account the energy expended by body fat being burnt once you are keto adapted.

    This link looks at this problem Lucas Tafur: Total Ketogenic Ratio (TKR) but to be honest there are too many unknown variables (read the link) to know how accurate it is. The author suggests that whilst the KR ratio underestimates, this one overestimates so its snot really worth worrying about.

    Taking my current macros of P 55g.C 6g Cals 135 0 (thus giving me F 123g)

    KR = (123x0.9+55x0.46) / (6+55x0.58+123x0.1) = 2.7
    If I use the same Pg & Cg but my old cals of 1130 (giving me F 98g) I get
    KR = 2.4
    So the next question has to be ‘what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>2.0?’

    Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 69g Cals 865.

    NB: This would represent the numbers for my macros if I was taking the low cal route with no blood ketone monitor to check & probably a DD on JUDDD (note to self – need to read a bit more on JUDDD nearer the time)

    Final question is ‘.what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>1.5?’

    Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 45g Cals 645.

    NB: This would definitely be the lowest I would go on any protein sparing modified fast or possible JUDDD DD
    Man, this tested my rusty algebra skills It seems like the real issue is what is the lowest muscle sparing level of protein we can eat? Sigh. Why is this all so hard for some of us?

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMS123 View Post
    Man, this tested my rusty algebra skills It seems like the real issue is what is the lowest muscle sparing level of protein we can eat? Sigh. Why is this all so hard for some of us?
    Actually I don’t think it is. I think it’s actually the maximum protein we can eat whilst staying in NK. Protein isn’t just used for muscle sparing but for muscle growth. More muscle means higher metabolism so it’s a win win situation. Unfortunately it is difficult to lose weight & build muscle at the same time as they are opposite ends of the spectrum – to build muscle you need to lift weights & stress the body, which in turn raises cortisal which prevents weight loss.

    I think the real issue is what is the lowest fat we can eat whilst feeling satiated & keeping the metabolism working. If you maintain on 2000 calories, eat a deficit of 500 cals daily over 4 weeks & lose 4lb, the question is would you lose 8lb every 4 weeks if you maintained a deficit of 1000 calories?

    CW says the metabolism would slow down to compensate for the apparent lack of calories being ingested. But with NK, the rules are different. In theory, the body is fine tuned at this point to burn body fat so has two energy inputs, calories consumed & body fat reserves, hence the deficit in calories ingested should be made up for by burning fast reserves so the metabolism should not be affected to the same degree.

    The problem is a) getting into NK & b) staying there. Without taking an RMR test & knowing your true BMR, then testing for blood ketones it’s very difficult to experiment.

    However, if each meal meets the Ketogenic Ratio > 2 then you have a better chance of getting into & staying in NK which in turn means you are less likely to lose muscle mass & slow your metabolism whilst ingesting less calories.

  10. #150
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    DG - thanks. When I got sick, for about 6-7 days, I was eating about 700 calories/day (I'm pretty convinced I was also in NK going into this). It certainly wasn't intentional to eat that low calorie. I did lose almost 7 lb, then I STALLED (and then a bit came back, but this was more, I think, to introducing NUTS in excess quantities). It's certainly interesting to think about. I do not think I would like to do such an extreme for very long, but if I was really stalled or was getting close, I could see doing this for a week.

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