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Thread: Journal of a Weary Dragon page 14

  1. #131
    Ddraig Goch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebbles67 View Post
    Hey DG, I found you. I wasn't aware that you had a journal. Reading it all in one go was a revelation.

    My head is spinning. You have certainly done a ton of research. I think part of the problem may be that you have over researched and confused yourself and your body. It looked as if your results on the Optimal Diet Formula were fine and yet within a week you had changed your macros. You then seemed to make changes at least once a week thereafter based on whatever you were reading at the time. Your only really bad week seems to be the one just before you posted your concerns on the EMF thread. At that point, both your protein and total calories had gotten too low IMO.

    Whatever you are doing now, make sure it is part of a balanced NK program and stick with it for a while. All in all, you are doing really awesome on Primal and NK.
    You must be a sucker for punishment reading that lot. I have been using it more as scrapbook than anything else.

    You are probably right in what you say – I haven’t read it al back although the first couple of weeks were really just part of trying to determine what my n=1 should be.

    Having spent some more time to day I am convinced my NK low cal is doable & I just jumped too quick. However, I am enjoying the extra protein that you suggested – It makes the whole thing much easier to sustain without having to be endured. The extra cals are taking a bit of getting used to but I enjoyed them today & for the first time am not interested in having more than 3 HCWC so maybe that’s doable too. The Weight has levelled out over the last few days too.

    So a BIG thank you for your suggestions. I feel thst after today I now have a real, long term doable plan (see previous post). I just need to go away & do it.

    The next stage is the GoWearFit thing & blood keto monitor. For that I need to earn more money. So I am off to do that. I shall still check in occasionally but will not be reading all the journals for a while.

    PS: Congrats on your loss over the past week. Please keep off the AS & good luck with not bingeing. If you do have to binge, give yourself permission to Eat Moar Fat!! At least it won’t knock you out of NK.

  2. #132
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    What you've posted makes sense. I swear I want a ketone monitor to figure out that ideal protein level. Once that is known, the rest should be relatively easy (maybe).

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
    Keto adaption v starvation diet - Part 3

    At Last - I have found someone actually doing keto adapted low fat & giving results!

    This first link is the original thread when he decides to try it:

    Eat LESS fat to lose more weight?

    This second is his actual experience:

    Nutritional Ketosis - you don't need (that much) fat!

    There are a couple of people on the thread who have achived NK los with lower fat (Nthe original poster is try to use least amount of fat possible so 500-700 cal/day but eh others are no so extreme).

    There is also mention of the slow metabolism issue:

    'When you excessively restrict calories over time, the thyroid rT3 replaces T3 in your tissues. rT3 prevents T3, the active thyroid hormone, from working. This is why people say "wrecks metabolism." High rT3 is also called "leptin resistance." '

    and a post from someone who did it succssfully under aDr & noew ests 2000 cals in maintainance:

    '
    Post: #15
    RE: Nutritional Ketosis - you don't need (that much) fat!
    I spent 16 weeks eating around 600 cals on a doctor supervised ketogenic diet. I lost 50 pounds and then kept it off eating high fat, low carb at around 2000 cals a day. I spent 8 weeks transitioning back to that level of calories. I don't believe my metabolism has been affected (any more than losing weight in any other way). the fact i have been able to keep the weight off for one year at a relatively high level of cals must be a good example of that.

    What I will say tho is that there are some side effects of a very low cal diet - even if it is high in protein. One is a lowering of your blood pressure, a loss of salts and dehydration. I suggest keeping an eye on your blood pressure and taking a multivitamin - just in case. it is hard to get the nutrients you require on very low cal diets.

    When the time comes to start eating more (when you reach the size/shape /weight you want) don't jump back in to normal low carb eating. be very controlled about adding calories back to you diet. Take a few weeks and keep the carb levels low throughout the process. it takes discipline - but i have to say that I found it easier than any other method of weight loss I have tried.'

    This could be my epiphany moment. Use low cals to lose the weight then use the leptin reset plan (still keeping Pg & Cg the same to raise the BMR so I can increase fat back up to a reasonable level.


    However I think this drastic measure is only required when I am trying to lose the last few lb. It is not necessary just yet.

    NB: Based on the experiences of the post included above I think when I do go low cal I will need to add the bullion so as to up the salt

    PS: I think the person who started the threads could well be the asianwithoutrice guy. His history follows & his cheat days are the same & he is definately asian


    You found me! And might I say, you are quite the investigator! Yep both are me. And actually, I saw your track back which kinda made me want to update my blog now more than ever. Vanishing Act | Asian Without Rice

    Everything you've found as far as forum posts and things I've learned along the way will definitely be written about eventually. Just a matter of when I have the time to do so! But as noted in my update blog post, I've learned a lot, and experimented QUITE a bit. So in the meantime, if you have questions, feel free to ask me directly! Now give me a day or two so I can read up on your entire 13 forum page long journal! Again, you have an incredible knack for investigation haha. So far, lots of good info and theories floating around your posts!

    And yes, I signed up on Mark's Daily Apple just to tell you that you found me haha. I've always been more of a reader on this particular forum, as I'm not so much in the Paleo mind set as I am in the general Low Carb camp. But either way, I think both have a ton to learn from each other.

  4. #134
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    Also, just want to say if you have any immediate questions (since I won't get to my experiments on my blog just yet) feel free to ask. I'm happy to share! And PS, the protein sparing modified fast is working quite well! NK still within range every morning, exercise performance is steady if not increasing, and fat is just melting off just as fast as it was when I started low carb a while back! And it doesn't seem like the low cals has been affecting my metabolism or energy in any kind of way. It's completely anecdotal, but it does seem that eating my approximately 100 grams protein a day and not much else has been working to target body fat heavily. Is it difficult? Oh yeah, but not because I'm hungry. I don't feel any different as far as hunger goes than when I was eating much more fat (enough for maintenance). But I have not craved fatty cuts of meat more in my life just for the pure sake of eating something with some flavor in it! But luckily, carb cravings are still fairly easy to fight off. Oh PS, since my blog post on the matter, apparently I've lost 10lbs body fat in about 50 days. I've never looked so lean in my life. Not even in high school.

  5. #135
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    Hi Derektran

    Glad to see you come out of the woodwork! I have been working on the theory of the protein sparing modified fast for a couple of weeks & was sure the science was sound. However, when I tried a modified version last week I ended up gaining every day so chickened out, probably too early. I think my protein was unsustainably low as well. Not having a ketone monitor & I can only check by weight & LBM via a BIA monitor so wanted to start low to ensure I got into NK.

    I have moved to a higher ratio for now & the gain has halted, but will definitely be trying the protein sparing modified fast when I get nearer goal so will be following you with interest.


  6. #136
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    Ok this is definitely my last investigative post for a while (forgot to add it earlier).

    This post deals with the ketogenic ratio which determines if your meals are ketogenic:
    Ketogenic Ratio and Weight Loss » Sweet Geek

    That is the ratio of foods that raise ketones vs. the foods that lower ketones, i.e. produce glucose.

    Ketogenic Ratio (KR) = (Fat * .9 + Protein * .46) / (Carb + Protein * .58 + Fat * .1)

    Ketogenic Ratio Description
    < 1.0 Not ketogenic, if healthy you won’t register ketones
    1.0 – 1.5 Mildly ketogenic, you may register ketones at this level
    1.5 – 2.0 Ketogenic, most people will register ketones
    > 2.0 Very ketogenic, you should definitely see ketones in this range

    This does not take into account the energy expended by body fat being burnt once you are keto adapted.

    This link looks at this problem Lucas Tafur: Total Ketogenic Ratio (TKR) but to be honest there are too many unknown variables (read the link) to know how accurate it is. The author suggests that whilst the KR ratio underestimates, this one overestimates so its snot really worth worrying about.

    Taking my current macros of P 55g.C 6g Cals 135 0 (thus giving me F 123g)

    KR = (123x0.9+55x0.46) / (6+55x0.58+123x0.1) = 2.7
    If I use the same Pg & Cg but my old cals of 1130 (giving me F 98g) I get
    KR = 2.4
    So the next question has to be ‘what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>2.0?’

    Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 69g Cals 865.

    NB: This would represent the numbers for my macros if I was taking the low cal route with no blood ketone monitor to check & probably a DD on JUDDD (note to self – need to read a bit more on JUDDD nearer the time)

    Final question is ‘.what is the lowest Fg that I can use to give KR>1.5?’

    Using my little macro calculator I end up with P 55g.C 6g F 45g Cals 645.

    NB: This would definitely be the lowest I would go on any protein sparing modified fast or possible JUDDD DD
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-20-2013 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMS123 View Post
    What you've posted makes sense. I swear I want a ketone monitor to figure out that ideal protein level. Once that is known, the rest should be relatively easy (maybe).
    Exactly. Not having one is driving me nuts lol

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ddraig Goch View Post
    Hi Derektran

    Glad to see you come out of the woodwork! I have been working on the theory of the protein sparing modified fast for a couple of weeks & was sure the science was sound. However, when I tried a modified version last week I ended up gaining every day so chickened out, probably too early. I think my protein was unsustainably low as well. Not having a ketone monitor & I can only check by weight & LBM via a BIA monitor so wanted to start low to ensure I got into NK.

    I have moved to a higher ratio for now & the gain has halted, but will definitely be trying the protein sparing modified fast when I get nearer goal so will be following you with interest.

    Well, if you need a recommendation on a BOHB monitor/strips I can let you know where I found Precision XTra strips pretty cheap ($2 a test, they come in boxes of 10). Great for testing in the morning every other day or after you try something the day before. But warning, testing get so addictive. I told myself I'd only test twice per day for a week and then go to once per day. But whenever I try something slightly different I want to test. I've gone through far too many strips at this point and just ordered more o_o

    I'll keep following you too to see how you are doing! Out of curiosity (and because I haven't had time to read through your entire journal yet) how much protein were you having and how much lean body mass would you estimate that you have?

    I'm intrigued by your gains during your version of the PSMF. What were your absolute macro amounts? (You can just link me to whatever journal entry you described it in if that's easier )

  9. #139
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    Ddraig Goch,

    I hope this plan works out for you. Keep us posted.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by derektran View Post
    Well, if you need a recommendation on a BOHB monitor/strips I can let you know where I found Precision XTra strips pretty cheap ($2 a test, they come in boxes of 10).
    Thanks but I’m in the UK. I have found a place in Germany that’s reasonable & quick but the shipping cost is not. Also if I’m going got test I would want to be able to do it daily for 3 months to start so it adds up

    Quote Originally Posted by derektran View Post
    ) how much protein were you having and how much lean body mass would you estimate that you have?

    I'm intrigued by your gains during your version of the PSMF. What were your absolute macro amounts? (You can just link me to whatever journal entry you described it in if that's easier
    A bit about me
    I am 49 female 5’6, BMR 1650 based on BIA monitor & 5 day average trend for calories in v wt loss/gain – other BMR calcs range from 1350 upwards, all based on sedentary individual. Without an actual RMR test it’s hard to tell.
    BIA Monitor has BF 39%. Mean of US Army/US Navy/British Army Calcultors has BF 30.7%. Visually it’s more 35% than 40%

    Volke & Phinney puts my lowest protein at 62g
    Kwasniewski puts my lowest protein at 56g
    I chose to start on 46g to ensure I got into NK (ketostix don’t work for me, I probably drink too much)

    I have been on 6-10g Carb, no sugar or AS for the past year except for the odd bowl of seasonal berries & bar of 90% chocolate.

    A bit about my NK n=1
    Starting macros: Pg 46 Cg 6 Fg 102 Cals 1129 Ratio 17-3-80
    Wk 1 wt 174 BF (based on BIA monitor) 40.7% LBM 103.2lb Loss: -4
    Wk 1 Av Macros: Pg 46.0, Cg 6.0, Fg 102.0 Cals 1129 Ratio 16-2-82
    Wk 2 wt 170 BF (based on BIA monitor) 40.0% LBM 102.0lb Loss: -2
    Wk 2 Av Macros: Pg 45.9, Cg 6.5, Fg 101.7 Cals 1133.5 Ratio 16-2-82
    Wk 3 wt 168* BF (based on BIA monitor) 39.3% LBM 102.0lb Gain: +2
    Wk 3 Av Macros: Pg 46.8, Cg 6.1, Fg 106.4 Cals 1174.6 Ratio 16-2-82

    During these 3 weeks, PG & Cg remained within 2g daily whilst cals fluctuated between 700 & 2000 (1 day only).

    *lowest wt in 20 years


    I don’t mind stalling but I don’t want to gain. Having gained steadily over Wk 3 I admit now I probably panicked & have moved cals up to 1350 (poss BMR – 20%) & protein up to 55%. This to me is a sustainable level of protein (in one of the pposts it’s the only problem I had with the WOE long term)

    So current macros; Pg 55 Cg 6 Fg 123 Cals 1250* Ratio 15-3-82

    I have created 24 menus plans using 6 different egg & fish break fasts (I do 14hr IF between 9pm-11am) & 4 different dinners with Pg 55-57 Cg 5-7 Cals 1172-1384 (av wk cals expected to be approx 1250)

    The intention was to eat cals 1350 but to achieve that I was adding fat to my menus for the sake of it which I think is a) silly b_) complicates things so expect to average approx 1250 as that's how the meuns work out.

    The plan for the next 4 wks is to stick to this (being female I think I need to stick to 4-5 wk cycles for obvious reasons & not freak out in the middle when it appears to be going wrong)
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-21-2013 at 10:17 AM. Reason: clarification

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