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  1. #121
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    Primal Fuel
    Where do I go from here Part 1?
    1) According to Pebbles, Dr Rosedale’s idea is that you should minimise sat fat for first 3-4 weeks as body fat is basically sat fat & in the first weeks the body is learning how to burn it efficiently (Lyle McDonald (another egotist – they do make reading their stuff hard work) suggests that most dietary fat is stored anyway – if carbs are low enough body fat is oxidised to a greater degree, dietary fat has no effect on oxidization so another reason not to go too high on the fat input Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald)

    2) Lots of people think dairy should be out especial cheese for some reason but butter is not really dairy as it has no milt proteins. I have never done a whole 30 on dairy before

    3) Jack Kruse in his leptin reset suggests:
    · Eat at least 50g protein no later than 30mins after rising with fat but no carbs. The idea is that this should satiate you throughout the day & the metabolism needs to get revved up etc. There are those who would say that primally, & to fit in with the circadian rhythm, dinner should be the only meal of the day – it needs to be caught first. The counter argument would be that they would have kept something back to give them energy to go do the catching. Whatever, I’m desperate so breakfast it is. (It would also all get burnt off before the end of the day)
    · Don’t snack as it over taxes the liver (have also read elsewhere that snacking causes body fat oxidation to pause as the body oxides the snack first so can understand this). You should aim for 1 or 2 meals a day
    · Dinner should be 4-5 hrs before bed
    · Don’t work out initially & when you do , don’t do it before breakfast (this could be tricky one as that is when I would chose to do it, but don’t need to worry about it yet)
    · Restrict cabs to 25g – no problem
    · Don’t count cals – would need to track for data purposes
    · CO is good as it helps to heal the gut & has a metabolic affect. Don’t use EVOO or nut oils. Butter & cream is ok
    · Take fish oils
    MY LEPTIN PRESCRIPTION | Living an Optimized Life

    Anther blogger (cant remember who) provided similar rules:
    1. Never eat after dinner. Finish eating dinner at least three hours before bed.
    2. Eat three meals a day. Allow 5-6 hours between meals. Do not snack!
    3. Do not eat large meals. Finish a meal when you are slightly less than full.
    4. Eat a high protein breakfast.
    5. Reduce the amount of carbs eaten.

    So we have some contradictions here – dairy or not dairy, sat fat or not sat fat. I wonder if CO is metabolized by the liver? Do CO shots count as snacks? I guess so

  2. #122
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    Where do I go from here Part 2?

    Having finished reviewing the predator diet (Thanks for the links RMS123), \I realise it is not for me at the moment. IT is basically all meat & I would need a source of grass fed beef to do it. I have the source in my local farm but not the money. Maybe when the next lot of cows are ready. I also need to get through my freezer full of poultry & tons of tinned fish.

    The Leptin reset & SLD do not sit well together. Leptin resistance seems to be an issue for anyone overweight & is more about stopping cravings for good than anything else. So first I think I need to lose the weight. SLD intrigues me most because I think my main problem right mow is the NSZ. Not having tracked so closely & continuously before, I can’t be sure what happens when I reach a NSZ, but I do know I always stall for weeks. So I suspect my body reaches a natural set point at each NSZ & this is what I need to sort out.

    There is a lot on the WWW re set point, it exists but no one really has an answer. So the best option as this stage is SLD. It is not going to hurt & I should be taking in the CO anyway for health benefits & because I believe it aides deeper NK. The only real problem I have with it is that it seems to work by giving you AS which in turn means you don’t eat as much which naturally leads you to lose weight so I’m not really sure the theory is all straight. Also I have tried eating less over the past 2 weeks & it seems not to be working (as I am still finding a daily increase I am not prepare to continue for a final week).

    Conclusions

    I am definitely not finished with NK just yet. I like the effects it supposedly has on the body for endurance sports which is where my exercise goals are leading me. I just need to figure the way forward
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-19-2013 at 12:35 AM. Reason: conclusion

  3. #123
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    Going forward - Revised n=1

    I am going to take Pebbles up on her suggestion of 55g protein. This fits in with original EMF macro formula – take HSIS Kg – 10%. Unfortunately Pg x 2.5 takes me too close to my BMR to lose weight so I need a different strategy. Again Pebbles suggests total cals BMR at rest – 20%. Best guess this would be 1350. This worries me slightly as it is also my predicted BMR if I work it out based on LBM only. Still I need a number so have nothing to lose at this stage.

    I have gone through all my menus using these macros (carbs 6g). I like the Pg as it allows more lee way & I can have my fav dinner or a cheese burger (primal) without blowing all the protein at once.

    However, I still have problems with the cals. It turns out that 1350 cals is an awful lot. Being at home yesterday I ate what I wanted within the 1350, 55 guidelines & I ended up having to force myself to eat (until |I got started on the HCWC - see below). This cannot be a good thing. It also requires me to over eat on the CO or butter to get the numbers right.

    I have had to bring back the HCWC to get the numbers up (NB: Bought 2 large pots of cream in a sale but that might have been a mistake I am convinced this is a trigger food – it could be the coco - as I went from forcing 1 down last night to having 3 (ok – still within cals) & then falling into the mayo & an extra tbsp of cream - net result 1440 cals).

    On reflection I think this is silly. SLD & NK are all about creating AS & to reach 1350 cals I am having to force myself to increase my appetite which is the total opposite. Since dietary fat is first stored as fat having such a high fat intake is not going to solve the problem.

    So, I have re done the menus to conform to a set of basic rules:

    11:00 Break Fast Part 1): boiled whole egg & egg yolk mixed with mayo
    Break Fast Part 2: tinned fish with 1tsp EVOO or smoked mackerel pate with cucumber or poached salmon with mayo, the amount dependent on meeting the daily protein need so dependent on Dinner.

    12:30 SLD Oil shot 1: 1 tbsp refined CO (easier to eat in public tasteless)

    14:00 Lunch: Homemade chicken broth with mushrooms & dark meat with 20g grass fed unsalted butter (in one case this puts the total cals >1400 so for this combination I have dropped the butter down to 10g)

    17:00 Dinner: Ground Turkey or turkey steak with spinach & mayo (staples) or occasionally beef burger with cheese, rocket & mayo (when rocket on offer) or chicken breast with Port Salut & endive (fav meal), both occasional

    20:00 Snack: HCWC??

    21:00 SLD Oil shot 2: 1 tbsp virgin CO

    Timings between first & last are flexible but must fit with SLD protocol

    NB: Going forward I would like to get down to 2 meals or maybe even 1 but doing SLD in conjunction stops that. Also I need to get in the broth so doing it as above seems the best way for the first couple of months

    With 6 fish meals & 4 meat meals this gives me 24 combinations so I cannot possibly feel deprived & could effectively keep this up forever. By standardising the CO & butter it makes it easier to throw everything together in the morning & keeps the fat cost fairly constant.

    Protein ranges from 55-57g cals range from 1172-1384 (occasional days) Carbs range from 4-10g. Macros range from 19-2-79 to 17-2-81. If I choose the fish meals wisely, even with the higher fat dinners I can keep the cals down to around 1300 so there is no reason for this to feel like a diet or for me to feel deprived.

    To make life easy & so as not to have lots of opened tins of fish lying around I am aiming to keep to the same fish meal each week. This would give me an approx weekly cal average of 1210-1285

    {UPDATE: It has just occurred to me that, based on the above numbers, my weekly average is likely to be around 1250 cals & not 1350 so that will be my starting point}

    The only real issue is the HCWC. It is 150 cals so if I just drop it I would be back down to 1100 cals which negates the tweaked n=1. I do not really want to add more CO or butter just for the sake of it. But equally I do not want trigger foods thrown in at this stage. I will try for a week & if it’s a problem I will try freezing the cream first as this makes the HCWC drinkable but not quite so appealing. If that doesn't work I will have to tweak again & try nuts instead. (NB: This may have caused my weight gain this week when I ate lots before stashing the remainder in the freezer – RMS123 seems to think this causes her a problem so maybe it is for me too -DS is fatally allergic to Brazil nuts so maybe I have a lesser problem)

    So my revised n=1 is:

    · Stick to 14hr IF - this helps with over eating in the evening \7 is apparently good for me.
    · 2 x CO shots as per SLD protocol – this helps with over eating due to the timing of when you can & cant eat & may change my set point downwards
    · Fish oil supplement, EVOO & oily fish daily – up the omegas 3 & provide high levels of EPA & DHA
    · 55g protein – low protein but more permanently livable
    · 1200-1350 cals based on weekly average. Less restrictive so easier to maintain without thinking about it
    · Supplements: Up the vit D to 4000 IU when I can afford it.· Change to magnesium citrate when I run out of magnesium oxide. Work out potassium & sodium intake based on menus then add potassium as necessary & Himalayan pink rock salt once running out side - when I have completed C25K on TM & I get to 11st7 (30lb from extreme HSIS)
    · Exercise - start C25k on the treadmill as planned next week (this is for fun, I have wanted to do it for ages but worried about chronic cardio). Run walk as necessary to keep HR<75%. Physio on Friday so find out about body weight exercises I can do. There must be something.

    I will continue to track (up a tiny amount this am so either I am now seeming some results from my previous 2 days of low cals & should have stayed the course or yesterday's higher cals of 1450 made the difference – we shall never know) & post monthly results but I am going to stay away from the forum for a bit. I need to get this all into perspective & make it part of my daily life that I do not have to think about. It’s a long journey & I can’t fixate on it all the time. I have learned a lot but I need to just put some of it into practice for a while & switch off from it all.

    My real objective right now is to increase my work hours so I can earn more money & become truly primal. (Also to buy a GoWearFit? to determine my real BMR & exercise output & a blood ketone meter.) Spending hours on the internet is not helping.

    So I’m not leaving, just hibernating.
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-21-2013 at 09:58 AM. Reason: update

  4. #124
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    Wed 19/3 update

    2 days on 55g protein 1350 cals. Wt remains the same so no longer gaining

    Of course it could be that the weight lags slightly behind the energy input so it could be that this is the result of the lower calories I ate in the previous 2 days & over the next 2 days I will see a gain, but for now its a minor victory & I will take it.

    PS: The 55g of protein is definitely more bearable. Yesterday I even managed 1/2 a donar kebab for dinner & still came in just under the protein level.

  5. #125
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    Looking for inspiration last night, I re-read V&P Art & Science of Low Carb Performance & it has occurred to me that there is a fundamental flaw in using HISIS to determine the protein macro. |I also don’t think you can eat to add muscle at the same time as being in NK unless you have a blood ketone meter to check the protein level is not too high.

    The key to NK is eating carbs & protein at the right levels then add the fat for satiety (or a bit less to lose weight). As you know, using V&P that would be:

    Carbs <50g
    Protein LBM * .6

    On the EMF thread we have been using HSIS to determine the protein amount. However, the body is not interested in HSIS. It is working with current LBM. So that's the number we should be using to determine the protein count. E.g.:

    My current wt = 168lb, 39% BF, LBM 102lb giving Pg = 102x.6 = 61.2g
    My HSIS wt = 137lb, 20% BF, LBM 109lb giving Pg = 109x.6 – 65.4g

    Because there is such a fine line between NK & too much protein this could make all the difference.

    NB: I am well aware that in some instances current LBM might be > HSIS LBM. In either case the equation should be checked regularly as the body composition changes.

    The other light bulb which flashed on was that once in NK at the level required (i.e. > 0.5), to stay there you merely need to keep the carb & protein level the same. If you need to eat more, then eat fat as this has no effect on NK. You may not lose the weight if you over eat the fat for a couple of days but you wont drop out of NK either. To lose weight just drop the fat.

    So staying in NK should be quite simple. The trick is to get the carb/protein number right to get into NK & then stick with it.

  6. #126
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    Hey DG, I found you. I wasn't aware that you had a journal. Reading it all in one go was a revelation.

    My head is spinning. You have certainly done a ton of research. I think part of the problem may be that you have over researched and confused yourself and your body. It looked as if your results on the Optimal Diet Formula were fine and yet within a week you had changed your macros. You then seemed to make changes at least once a week thereafter based on whatever you were reading at the time. Your only really bad week seems to be the one just before you posted your concerns on the EMF thread. At that point, both your protein and total calories had gotten too low IMO.

    Whatever you are doing now, make sure it is part of a balanced NK program and stick with it for a while. All in all, you are doing really awesome on Primal and NK.

  7. #127
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    Keto adaption v starvation diet - Part 1

    Also came across this blog today (Yes I was going to stay away from the internet but am on an enforced rest day as I saw the physio yesterday re the shoulder).It's very interesting as it has all the science behind it

    The Ketogenic Primer: The Guide To A Scientifically Healthy Diet | Asian Without Rice
    This one address's the concept OF NEAT - if you lower cals on a SAD diet the BMR goes down to compensate but on a keto adapted diet it doesn't as the body gets the extra calories from body fat.

    http://asianwithoutrice.com/calories-matter-sort-of/

    This one also addresses the issue of the starvation diet:

    Weight Loss Journey So Far! | Asian Without Rice

    My thinking on the starvation diet is as follows (see also the next post):

    A Keto adapted body responds differently to a body eating a SAD diet. The SAD diet will cause muscles degeneration in order to create glucose to feed the brain if calories get too low. A Keto adapted body uses ketones to feed the brain from fat so, unless your body fat gets into single figures, muscle wastage will not occur on low calories.

    However in the blog above, after doing NK he got a dunk test & RMR test done. He compared his LBM loss to his fiancée’s.

    He had lost approx 20% (3lb) LBM as his RMR went down due to unintentionally eating lower calories (not hungry) & doing 18-26hr IF on occasion which may have caused muscle breakdown, whereas his fiancée lost just 0.5lb LBM with no IF whilst restricting carbs to 30g/d. HE also was very sedentary whereas his fiancée moves around all day in a lab. He also had a cheat day every 5-6 weeks which knocked him out of NK for 2-3 days so this may have an effect too (shame he did this as its difficult to conclude if the other things were the cause)

    NB: Rebecca Latham was eating 1550 cals during on her NK experiment & only had 20lb to lose but dropped weight (I think she is approx my height). So maybe there is something in this higher cals thing after all.

    Conclusion - The extra LBM loss could be due to the cheat days when he was knocked out of ketosis because a lower cal to IF day during this period would mean his body reacting as per a SAD diet & lowering BMR as well as using muscle for food. NEAT in the keto adapted suggests this wouldn't happen if you were permanently in NK. IF for 24hrs would also mean the body not getting its required protein for the day which may also have an effect on LBM

    So the jury is still out. I am still not convinced higher cals works better than lower cals. I do now wish I had continued on the lower cals for a bit longer. However, If I can eat at a higher cal level & still lose 1-2lb/wk then all to the good so I will stick with this until the end of cycle 2 of my N=1 (4.5 wks time), especially as I shall be starting C25K next week (still can't so LHT) so using extra energy.
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-20-2013 at 11:59 AM. Reason: NB

  8. #128
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    Keto adaption v starvation diet - Part 2

    This is a comment in A New Toy Measuring Blood Ketones | DietDoctor.com made by the blogger in the previous post approx 9 mths after he did his experiment in which he explains why he has gone for the low cal approach I have been advocating. His reasoning is along the lines of mine too. Unfortunately he doesn’t give any results:

    ‘I've been eating a very high amount of dietary fat (80% fat), as I was trying to aim for Phinneys ratios. I ate no more than 20-25 grams on a higher carbohydrate day. My protein was fairly low (or so I thought). And I probably ate about 150 grams of fat a day. I've definitely keto adapted, as the MINIMUM amount of time I ever stay in ketosis without breaking the diet was 6-7 weeks (and around 7 weeks I'd usually have ONE free day …….. 7 weeks at a time helps me stay disciplined and very strict, and allows plenty of time to re-keto adapt). Oddly enough, I've never NOT shown purple on the ketone urinalysis sticks (except after those free days).
    So a few weeks ago, I thought: what if I eat the same # grams of protein and carbs as I have been but just reduce the fat. This would surely make my body rely on body fat instead of the dietary fat I've been giving my body plenty of. So now I'm eating about 15-20 grams carbs a day, 70-100 grams protein, and as little fat as possible (usually between 20-40 grams). If my weight hasn't changed while I was eating 150 grams, that must mean all 150 grams of fat were being used in gluconeogenesis. So cutting down to 40 grams of fat a day means 110 grams of that fat used in gluconeogenesis must come from body fat. Obviously eating less will slow metabolism but even still, if 60 grams a day of fat came from fat, thats about 3,700 cals of fat from body stores a week!
    Then I found out this is basically Lyle McDonalds Rapid Fat Loss. And that Phinney has said on multiple occasions that in order to lose weight, one must eat less fat and keep carbs/protein constant and low so that their body turns to burning from fat stores.
    The body should still see it as a low carb high fat diet, the only different is the fat that your body is "eating" comes from you not that ribeye steak (that I miss oh so much right now). During my high fat days, I always had to remind myself to eat like many ketogenic dieters report. I still managed to eat 1800+ cals a day (I am 5'6 and weight about 139-141). For the past 2.5 weeks I've been eating about 500 cals a day almost exclusively from protein and a tiiiiny bit of fat. And I still don't feel hungry, which implies that my body is eating away at the fat stores still I hope! Although 500 cals seems extreme, I believe my body is still "eating" 1800 cals a day from the inside. And the urine ketone strips are still in the darkish purple range which means it's burning fat from somewhere! And don't worry, this is just for change and not a type of diet I'd stay on. After I am done losing the fat I want, I'll add the dietary fat back. In theory, the composition of my diet never changed.’
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-20-2013 at 11:59 AM. Reason: added title

  9. #129
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    Keto adaption v starvation diet - Part 3

    At Last - I have found someone actually doing keto adapted low fat & giving results!

    This first link is the original thread when he decides to try it:

    Eat LESS fat to lose more weight?

    This second is his actual experience:

    Nutritional Ketosis - you don't need (that much) fat!

    There are a couple of people on the thread who have achived NK los with lower fat (Nthe original poster is try to use least amount of fat possible so 500-700 cal/day but eh others are no so extreme).

    There is also mention of the slow metabolism issue:

    'When you excessively restrict calories over time, the thyroid rT3 replaces T3 in your tissues. rT3 prevents T3, the active thyroid hormone, from working. This is why people say "wrecks metabolism." High rT3 is also called "leptin resistance." '

    and a post from someone who did it succssfully under aDr & noew ests 2000 cals in maintainance:

    '
    Post: #15
    RE: Nutritional Ketosis - you don't need (that much) fat!
    I spent 16 weeks eating around 600 cals on a doctor supervised ketogenic diet. I lost 50 pounds and then kept it off eating high fat, low carb at around 2000 cals a day. I spent 8 weeks transitioning back to that level of calories. I don't believe my metabolism has been affected (any more than losing weight in any other way). the fact i have been able to keep the weight off for one year at a relatively high level of cals must be a good example of that.

    What I will say tho is that there are some side effects of a very low cal diet - even if it is high in protein. One is a lowering of your blood pressure, a loss of salts and dehydration. I suggest keeping an eye on your blood pressure and taking a multivitamin - just in case. it is hard to get the nutrients you require on very low cal diets.

    When the time comes to start eating more (when you reach the size/shape /weight you want) don't jump back in to normal low carb eating. be very controlled about adding calories back to you diet. Take a few weeks and keep the carb levels low throughout the process. it takes discipline - but i have to say that I found it easier than any other method of weight loss I have tried.'

    This could be my epiphany moment. Use low cals to lose the weight then use the leptin reset plan (still keeping Pg & Cg the same to raise the BMR so I can increase fat back up to a reasonable level.


    However I think this drastic measure is only required when I am trying to lose the last few lb. It is not necessary just yet.

    NB: Based on the experiences of the post included above I think when I do go low cal I will need to add the bullion so as to up the salt

    PS: I think the person who started the threads could well be the asianwithoutrice guy. His history follows & his cheat days are the same & he is definately asian
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-20-2013 at 12:46 PM. Reason: PS

  10. #130
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    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Today has been a good day. I have learned a lot (especially that keto adaption spares muscle loss) & feel vindicated that my theory re keto adapted low cal would work. Maybe I just didn’t give it enough time Lesson learned – don’t tweak too soon.

    Having said that, it would be easier to sustain it in the summer when the weather is a lot warmer & I truly do think it is best kept for those last few pounds.

    After 3 days I am now beginning to enjoy eating the extra cals & definitely the extra protein.

    So going forward – revised n=1

    - 4-5 wk cycles
    - I shall stick with P 55g C 6g Cals 1250-1350* as a start point
    - At end of cycle:
    1) Raise fat cals by 100 if weight loss too quick (>1.5lb /wk),
    2) Lower fat cals by 100 if weight loss too slow (<1.5lb/wk)
    3) JUDDD if weight loss stalls for 2 wks (keeping Pg & Cg the same)


    *Av cals expected to be 1250 wk 5 onwards
    Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 03-21-2013 at 10:02 AM. Reason: footnote

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