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Thread: Strength good, conditioning bad. Help. page 2

  1. #11
    arthurb999's Avatar
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    You lose endurance quickly... and it's a lot of work to keep up.

    For me, it's a lousy return on time invested so I do a weekly hill sprint session and that provides me with more than enough endurance for "life".

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    As an untrained individual you will develop strength and muscle volume on almost any sensible weight program. It is not a bad idea starting your lifting carrier with the heavy compunds, but it is not the only way, and don't let that type of training hold your back, if what you really need is more stength conditioning. So many gymrats in my gym are held back by only focusing on strength numbers, instead of building up more reps, sets and training days. Especially if your goals are general fitness...
    If your goal is to be as strong as possible in the most efficient way possible, heavy compound lifts are indeed the only way. I assure you if you took a group of people A, and made them do heavy squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and overhead presses, and fed them accordingly, vs group of people B that did whatever else, group A would always come out stronger. The lifts for group A are basic human movements that allow one to lift the most weight, thus allowing you to get stronger in the most efficient way known.

    If you want conditioning, no one says you shouldn't do it. Rippetoe's point is that for the average person, the best way towards general fitness, as you call it, is strength. Once strength is at an acceptable level, conditioning can be added in as necessary.

    I'm also not sure why you mention "building more reps, sets, and training days"? More reps just means working on stamina. More sets? For what? If you're doing a volume training day, as an intermediate lifter, sure, otherwise, what's the general purpose? If it's like more reps, then you're just talking about stamina. More days? Not for heavy lifting. Proper recovery is paramount.

  3. #13
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    quikky,

    Heavy squats, deads, and bench make you stronger in those lift, but they will not help you much if we measure "strenght" in a gymnastic movement or pullups! I have seen lifters that are very strong in deadlifts, but that cant pull themselves up in a chin-up bar, less in gymnastic rings, just to illustrate that "strength" is relative to the movements you are doing. Try to let the biggest squatter in your gym perform a one leg squat if he have not trained it, he probably can't do any!

    I am not against heavy compound lift, and I do them regulary, but they are not the only way, and sometimes it may be a good idea to cycle them, or take them out for a period.

    More reps, sets and in general more volume give a larger protein and energy turn-over, and if you eat enough you will build more muscle that way, it will also train your body to store more glycogen and water inside your muscle. Basically you need all reps intervalls from below 5 to over 20, but everything depends on your goals, if you just want to have impressive 1 RM in deadlifts, then you must train for that, and stay away from high rep work...

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    Lots of good stuff being thrown around, but none of it really answers my question. Any ideas on how to increase my ability to move quickly for 10-20 minutes without stopping? Call it stamina, endurance, conditioning, ability to ignore burning pain, whatever--I want to stop having to rest in the middle of metcons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    Lots of good stuff being thrown around, but none of it really answers my question. Any ideas on how to increase my ability to move quickly for 10-20 minutes without stopping? Call it stamina, endurance, conditioning, ability to ignore burning pain, whatever--I want to stop having to rest in the middle of metcons.
    Be careful with how you integrate heavy lifting. Hard metcons and heavy lifting are tough to mix, especially if you don't eat enough to promote good recovery. How often do you lift heavy and how often do you do your metcons? Also, what do the typical metcons look like, is it typical CrossFit WOD style workout? Lastly, if you don't mind sharing, what are your strength numbers for the core lifts?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    quikky,

    Heavy squats, deads, and bench make you stronger in those lift, but they will not help you much if we measure "strenght" in a gymnastic movement or pullups! I have seen lifters that are very strong in deadlifts, but that cant pull themselves up in a chin-up bar, less in gymnastic rings, just to illustrate that "strength" is relative to the movements you are doing. Try to let the biggest squatter in your gym perform a one leg squat if he have not trained it, he probably can't do any!

    I am not against heavy compound lift, and I do them regulary, but they are not the only way, and sometimes it may be a good idea to cycle them, or take them out for a period.

    More reps, sets and in general more volume give a larger protein and energy turn-over, and if you eat enough you will build more muscle that way, it will also train your body to store more glycogen and water inside your muscle. Basically you need all reps intervalls from below 5 to over 20, but everything depends on your goals, if you just want to have impressive 1 RM in deadlifts, then you must train for that, and stay away from high rep work...
    Heavy squats, deads, and presses make you stronger period. Sure, you won't be able to just hop on a set of rings and bust out an Iron Cross, but you will be stronger and more prepared for it. Gymnastics require strength unique to gymnastics, you can't stand on one hand, or do the human flag, or anything like that by just lifting weights. However, the strength from compound weight lifting does carry over. Can you honestly tell me being able to press your bodyweight overhead has no carryover to gymnastics? Or being able to squat 400lb has no implication on jumping ability, or balance, or core strength?

    Another thing, difficult gymnastic movements are not general fitness. General fitness is being able to lift heavy stuff off the ground, push, pull, and carry weights, etc. not walk on hands, swing on rings, or do back-flips.

    Also, whoever you've seen with a very strong deadlift but no chin-ups is either not very strong at deadlifts, or are a professional powerlifter with a bodyweight of 300lb+. I've never met anyone who has a good deadlift but can't pull themselves up. By the way, pull-ups and dips are great exercises, it's just that if someone is starting from zero, it is often beneficial to focus on the core lifts only. Once those are stronger, assistance work like pull-ups can be added in.

    In terms of reps, 1RM carries over to other rep ranges. Who do you think can do more 135lb deadlifts: a person with a 185lb 1RM deadlift, or a person with a 405lb 1RM deadlift? Like Rippetoe mentions in his article, increasing maximum capacity lets you perform more work at a lower capacity. Unless you are doing something that requires minimal force production for a long amount of time, such as long distance running, having higher peak strength makes it easier to do.

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    Short story quikky, according to the principle of specifity in exercise science you get better in exactly what you are training for, and you and Rippetoe seem to forget about just that! Don't expect too much carry over effect to other exercises, not even from compound lifts, because it doesen't work that way. And I repeat what I have said above, there are no exercise that cannot replace the heavy compounds, unless you have a specific goal to perform in those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Short story quikky, according to the principle of specifity in exercise science you get better in exactly what you are training for, and you and Rippetoe seem to forget about just that! Don't expect too much carry over effect to other exercises, not even from compound lifts, because it doesen't work that way. And I repeat what I have said above, there are no exercise that cannot replace the heavy compounds, unless you have a specific goal to perform in those.
    How does general strength from compound lifts not carry over? You're saying if I have strong shoulders and triceps from pressing, as an example, that shoulder and tricep strength won't carry over to another exercise that uses shoulders and triceps? Explain the physiology please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurb999 View Post
    You lose endurance quickly... and it's a lot of work to keep up.

    For me, it's a lousy return on time invested so I do a weekly hill sprint session and that provides me with more than enough endurance for "life".
    It is a lousy return. More importantly, having this endurance is NOT needed unless you are involved in athletics where it would be needed. A good strength training program will give one all the conditioning they need for the biggest game of all, life. I train for less than 30 minutes a week and I can easily jog up several flights of stairs without getting gassed. I can do all the things one would want to or need to on a regular basis. I have no aches or pains and lots of energy everyday. That is fitness.
    Last edited by Forever Young; 01-22-2013 at 03:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomingno View Post
    ...did you even read the article? From HIS fitness perspective, being strong turns what for some people is an all-out effort to do one rep, INTO an endurance exercise. Would you call someone who can spend a day loading 150-200 70lb bales of hay "poorly conditioned" because he or she runs a bad 5 minute mile time?

    EDIT: although it is worth pointing out that Rip's article is mostly talking about untrained individuals, which the OP does not seem to be.

    But I think the point still stands. Add weight to your primary lifts, and eventually what you lift now is just a warmup.
    For what "would i call someone"? Moving furniture? I didnt lift anything heavier than my grocery bag in the last 5 years (apart from training) and i dont see it changing too soon in the future.

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