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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    The quest for efficiency and problem solving is what caused previous societies to eventually collapse

    Joseph Tainter - The Colapse of Complex Societies

    https://www.google.com/search?q=coll...iw=320&bih=416

    There's 7 videos
    Watched the first of seven, and it's pretty good. I think it aligns well with what I think, actually, about the balanced system.

    I think you and I have different definitions of efficiency

  2. #202
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    You're welcome
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Common:
    1. belonging equally to, or shared alike by, two or more or all in question: common property; common interests.
    2. pertaining or belonging equally to an entire community, nation, or culture; public: a common language or history; a common water-supply system.
    3. joint; united: a common defense.
    4. widespread; general; ordinary: common knowledge.
    5. of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar: a common event; a common mistake.


    I would say that encapsulates the low-fat paradigm most people struggle under.
    Common sense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Common sense is defined by Merriam-Webster as, "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts."[1] Thus, "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people already have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have. The Cambridge Dictionary defines it as, "the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way".[2]
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  4. #204
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    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C. S. Lewis
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakura_girl View Post
    Well, yes and no. The government makes the system more efficient by continuing to place some resources where it should be. However, the system also becomes less efficient due to the fact that it doesn't add resources to where it needs to be, or at least gets in the way of that happening. It becomes a net 0 effect on the system's efficiency, resulting in why I believe that it's efficient for the technology/the way our society is, but doesn't do anything to accelerate the system's efficiency.

    Yay, more efficiency words! I think I used it twice per line :P
    I think that you need to get laid maybe. Something is not right- I can only imagine hearing that word spoken in the voice of that nasty bitch from The Weakest Link.

    also "government" can't "move" resources without incurring loss, because it produces nothing, so to move anything produced, first it has to use capital otherwise used for something else. All of its capital is stolen. Read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the chapter that is called I think, On the Coldest of Monsters. Maybe its just called On The State.

    Sometimes he does go out and hug a cripple. It depends on that person's personality. It all rebalances. You are thinking worst case scenario, where you are only extrapolating from your own personal anecdotes to form that opinion.
    yes precisely- I am trusting my tried and tested experience that has affirmed itself time and again to my observing and living senses, rather than the fantastic imagination of an intenret avatar. This balance talk also sounds like not your voice, like you are trying to convince yourself and channeling daddy or some teacher you have a crush on or something.

    You are making it seem like money is really the only resource that matters. I agree with Uncephalized in that you should focus on what you enjoy doing. The intangible value of what you contribute to society will increase, and money will follow.
    mystical horseshit- one acquires wealth to the degree that he serves the human-wrecking ends of the global evil machine.

    Who cares what other people are doing to you;
    well I obviously do, because when someone puts their hands toward me, without even thinking, I raise my own in defense. Therefore I must care.

    they are just a means of either getting in your way or helping you.
    Let's say I am weak with dehydration and come upon a river, where sits an asshole with a club.

    haha your arguments are just childish and sheltered. I cannot help you there.

    If your real value is to be happy in what you are doing, the end and not the means, other things, like money, decrease in value to yourself and the result is more desireable. But that is just IMO...
    I am not going to argue that there are things more valuable to me than money, but you seem to be arguing that I shouldn't even consider getting paid when I make decisions, even though in order to not freeze to death, in order to feed myself, and in order to be able to communicate with people, I must make payments.

    Also I have done some calculations and in my "class" or "clan" or whatever (the totality of people on my Contacts list, somewhere around 60 regular people), we average about $700 a year in government imposed fines that are levied against us at gun-point without having done any harm to anyone. So even just to be in a space controlled by a government, you need to make money or they throw you in a cage.


    And they, as people, degrade. What's your point.
    this is in response to my claim that in times of scarcity, the imperial bureaucratic class gets fatter. Getting fatter while other people die of preventable diseases and work medieval labor conditions until they are gray and bent is not degrading- the opposite- they are thriving. They have successful and well-placed children with fat cheeks and stupid attitudes like you, while we have less children who deal with harsher and riskier conditions that eventually feed into their prison for profit system. Seriously you are making me ill.

    I like to hybridize the culture of both Westerners and Asian. There is some things in culture, like independence, that I must value in order to live and succeed in Western society. My Asian-ness comes in when I need balance and peace, which there is none of in the Western world.

    LOL

    I worked at a chinese takeout place for a few years, was pretty much a part of the family. The owners were a husband and wife, and there were a few relatives or friends/dependents that cooked regularly. No one but me seemed to think it was weird that when the husband was mad, he just beat on the wife right in front of everyone.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  6. #206
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    Before I start requoting you, I just want to say that you exude a very negative tone, and I feel that emotional side may be impeding on your overall sense of logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    I think that you need to get laid maybe. Something is not right- I can only imagine hearing that word spoken in the voice of that nasty bitch from The Weakest Link.
    Scared that a girl can out-do a man like you with logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    also "government" can't "move" resources without incurring loss, because it produces nothing, so to move anything produced, first it has to use capital otherwise used for something else. All of its capital is stolen. Read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the chapter that is called I think, On the Coldest of Monsters. Maybe its just called On The State.
    So you would say that all the goverment spending on national defense is a waste of resources; that you would be more comfortable if it didn't, after our nation decided to be the world's police after WWII? Okay......

    Maybe this governmental imbalance skewed toward defense just creates opportunity for another government to be efficiently allocating resources to something like production (e.g., China). Thus, as a system, it is actually kind of efficient if you think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    yes precisely- I am trusting my tried and tested experience that has affirmed itself time and again to my observing and living senses, rather than the fantastic imagination of an intenret avatar. This balance talk also sounds like not your voice, like you are trying to convince yourself and channeling daddy or some teacher you have a crush on or something.
    Just because I haven't complained or flaunted the shitty life I had when I was younger does not mean that you are the only one in this conversation who has seen poverty and corruption get in the way of people more deserving of certain rewards. Why so negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    mystical horseshit- one acquires wealth to the degree that he serves the human-wrecking ends of the global evil machine.
    And this is where I am beginning to believe that you don't really get what I am trying to say...especially with intangible values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    well I obviously do, because when someone puts their hands toward me, without even thinking, I raise my own in defense. Therefore I must care.
    You don't have to care if they're not trying to personally harm you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    Let's say I am weak with dehydration and come upon a river, where sits an asshole with a club.

    haha your arguments are just childish and sheltered. I cannot help you there.
    You are only as weak as you make yourself to be. You can be strong anytime. It's really your state of mind ... are you going to continue down this negative path?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    I am not going to argue that there are things more valuable to me than money, but you seem to be arguing that I shouldn't even consider getting paid when I make decisions, even though in order to not freeze to death, in order to feed myself, and in order to be able to communicate with people, I must make payments.

    Also I have done some calculations and in my "class" or "clan" or whatever (the totality of people on my Contacts list, somewhere around 60 regular people), we average about $700 a year in government imposed fines that are levied against us at gun-point without having done any harm to anyone. So even just to be in a space controlled by a government, you need to make money or they throw you in a cage.
    Sounds like you don't have confidence in yourself anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    this is in response to my claim that in times of scarcity, the imperial bureaucratic class gets fatter. Getting fatter while other people die of preventable diseases and work medieval labor conditions until they are gray and bent is not degrading- the opposite- they are thriving. They have successful and well-placed children with fat cheeks and stupid attitudes like you, while we have less children who deal with harsher and riskier conditions that eventually feed into their prison for profit system. Seriously you are making me ill.
    Yeah, so those kids will basically learn how to waste their parents' money, and will be very unhappy for the rest of their lives while their parents stupidly watch their kids go down in flames. Where's the value in the money there? What's your point?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    LOL

    I worked at a chinese takeout place for a few years, was pretty much a part of the family. The owners were a husband and wife, and there were a few relatives or friends/dependents that cooked regularly. No one but me seemed to think it was weird that when the husband was mad, he just beat on the wife right in front of everyone.
    Again, you seem to be using your n=1 and applying it to an entire group. Do you think humans are perfect? Just because someone acts like that doesn't mean that he doesn't feel humongously guilty about it for the rest of his life, and that he countered his cultural/ethical values to get an hour's worth of a little satisfaction.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakura_girl View Post
    Before I start requoting you, I just want to say that you exude a very negative tone, and I feel that emotional side may be impeding on your overall sense of logic.
    there is no such thing as pure logic except in the mathematical structure of energy and matter, and even then, we are only theorizing that it has no experience or feelings, because we have no means of communicating with it- in the world of living things, logic is a flavor or aspect of other more holistic sensations. There is nothing logical about cunnilingus for example, and yet I am a truffle pig.
    Scared that a girl can out-do a man like you with logic?
    no I am scared that you reflect the opinions of a great many, and make apologies for sadists who rob people, and deflect the violent appetite for retribution with bullshit about balance.

    So you would say that all the goverment spending on national defense is a waste of resources; that you would be more comfortable if it didn't, after our nation decided to be the world's police after WWII? Okay......

    Maybe this governmental imbalance skewed toward defense just creates opportunity for another government to be efficiently allocating resources to something like production (e.g., China). Thus, as a system, it is actually kind of efficient if you think about it.
    tell this to chinese laborers who work 16 hour shifts under machine gun barrels in barbed wire compounds...

    your ignorance is like, astounding. We are talking about PEOPLE here, and LIFE FORMS all around them- the ecosystem abounds with things that are suffering needlessly to glorify the ego trips of maniacs with delusions of some kind of privilege and progress.

    Just because I haven't complained or flaunted the shitty life I had when I was younger does not mean that you are the only one in this conversation who has seen poverty and corruption get in the way of people more deserving of certain rewards. Why so negative?
    like the buddha, I am positing an exaggerated opposite to correct your perception that the order of things is positive.
    And this is where I am beginning to believe that you don't really get what I am trying to say...especially with intangible values.

    Likewise- you are attributing to money some kind of mystical magical value, saying that "it will come to you" once you do something you love LOL. I know a great deal of people in California went after what they loved- rather than money, they summoned federal boots and machine guns and SWAT and the chopper.

    You don't have to care if they're not trying to personally harm you.
    Robbing me is personally harming me- when I am at work, I would rather be with my wife; I have to work extra though to make money for taxes, so I am being deprived of time that I would rather spend elsewhere, at gun point.

    You are only as weak as you make yourself to be. You can be strong anytime. It's really your state of mind ... are you going to continue down this negative path?
    ok we are just going to be done after this post, because you just sounds like you are on Thorazine or something. I just said, "weak with dehydration" as in, "my real and living biology is diminished to the point of threshold unconsciousness and death" and you are treating this actual physiological state like some Oprah sobby depression story. You are not "making yourself to be weak" if you are near death from dehydration, you are in fact weakened.

    Sounds like you don't have confidence in yourself anymore.
    this in response to my self-tabulated figure of the average amount of money myself and my peers are forced to surrender to agents of the State at the point of gun merely for doing things like being on a road. What the hell does this have to do with confidence? Yep last post with you.

    Yeah, so those kids will basically learn how to waste their parents' money, and will be very unhappy for the rest of their lives while their parents stupidly watch their kids go down in flames. Where's the value in the money there? What's your point?
    people buy food with money...


    Again, you seem to be using your n=1 and applying it to an entire group. Do you think humans are perfect? Just because someone acts like that doesn't mean that he doesn't feel humongously guilty about it for the rest of his life, and that he countered his cultural/ethical values to get an hour's worth of a little satisfaction.
    I was positing the story to demonstrate that in my experience with an asian family, "harmony" and "peace" meant coercion and fear and the awkward quiet in its cold shadow. You were talking as though Asia was some magical land of poppy dreams and utopian respect for each other LOL. ASIA. hahaha (any geographic designation would be funny with that claim, assuming people live there)
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  8. #208
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    Things are only as negative as you make it out to be. If you were positive, you'd see the good in everyone and try to use that to better the world. Instead, it seems like you are hell-bent on criticizing everyone to bring down to your level.

    I realize now that it is in actuality impossible to hold an objective debate with you because you let your emotional negativity get in your way. I'm not trying to defend people who are doing injustice in the world; rather, I am just pointing out that every action has a counterbalance, and that if they benefit so much in the short-term, they will likely perish in the long-term. Money is only a means, it has no real value.

    In the end, it's really yourself being happy with what you have, and if you're not, well good luck to you and your hate-spiral.

  9. #209
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    Also, you keep taking my words out of context :\

  10. #210
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    ok maybe one more... lol

    I am "being negative" because you are trying to tell me that it's in fact positive that I am abused systematically, because the abusers enjoy a sense of reward for my torment...so obviously I have to refute this with a negation.

    If you were all bemoaning the nature of society as entirely tyrannical, I would be refuting your claim with a Positive rebuttal- I'd point out that no matter how oppressive the law, for example, that all sub-cultures are always organized around ignoring whichever laws they can whenever it is possible to do so (how servers and bar-tenders and their bosses, for example, are all engaged in tax resistance)

    I am high right now, and yet, there are satellites and quantum computers and AR-15s and armored cars on the street whose intent is to prevent me from achieving and maintaining this wavelength. And yet here I am with my bong.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

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