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Thread: Manic phases - need help... please! page 2

  1. #11
    namelesswonder's Avatar
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    My experience is with depression and anxiety.

    Now... disclaimer: The book "The Mood Cure" dabbles with supplements (esp. amino acids) to help deal, what are essentially, nutritional imbalances that result in emotional disorders. I believe it warns that you should NOT dabble with these supplements to try and "fix" bipolar disorder. If that is what you have, I don't know enough about the supposed chemical roots (because nobody really knows how these things work and it varies so much) to say for sure that it would be safe to try these things. What works for you during an up period (to help you sleep restfully) may not work for you during a down period (to help you feel more energized and less depressed). I still think it's worth a read. That, or "Primal Body Primal Mind", but I don't know if that addresses Bipolar disorder specifically.

    The swings you've described from high to low (inexplicably, not just because a project is over or something) do not sound like the regular ups and downs of life to me. It's normal to feel a bit deflated when something you've enjoyed is over, but if you are feeling totally down for no apparent reason (in terms of events/occurrences in your life), that's not normal. Of course, take "normal" with a grain of pink Himalayan sea salt.

    I absolutely understand the frustration. After struggling with depression for my teen years and my adult life so far (not that long, I suppose), it can be really maddening to go in cycles of "okay" and "totally not fucking okay" and it leaves you thinking, "This again?! Why am I not better yet? Why can't I handle it this time?" It's not your fault. Trying to blame yourself less is a wonderful idea, even if it can be difficult to impose.

    Have you had your hormones tested? I am curious how that and your cortisol might show up during an up or a down period.
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  2. #12
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    Hey, yep it was a Yogi bear ref, I'm dyslexic so only tend to half read 75% of the actuall words I look at (this also explains why my typing and spelling is somewhat erratic at times) so I tend to read things how they look at a glance so many forum names are misread in my head

    I tottaly get the black days or weeks, I've just had a couple of days of being an ablolute miserable c**t, don't know why, but then I ate nothing all day (my mind said wha't the point in eating you'll only get hungry again, which had been part of what was stressing me)and in evening ate lots and lots and lots of sugary crap - gluten free triple chocolate cookies, coconut macaroons, galaxy bar, maltesers and almost a whole packet of jordans contry crisp ceral (that's half a fecking kilo )

    I then felt slightly better and decided I probably need to eat more carbs all the time to stop binging, I think for me low carb + stress = constant hunger; massive crash and sugar binge. mod carb + stess = copable just.

    Can't really coment on the sleep as it's been 4 years since I had a decent period of good sleep (4 year old who only just started sleeping when next one came along who is the lightest nighttime sleeper ever).

    But I do know that this lack of sleep is causing me stress, and making me a grumpy bugger, and that is not helping me keep things in perspective, which means I'm more likely to go into a down.
    So I do agree that sorting your sleep out could be a good start to getting out of this cycle. I assume you have tried all the normal stuff, white noise at night, very dark room, cut out blue light before bed, eating something carby before bed.

    I would also recommend self hypnosis for sleep if you haven't tried it, we did hypno-birthing for the births of the childerbeasts and we used to listen to the CD before bed, there were times when neither of us could remember anything past the first relaxation bit (less than 2 mins in) and we always slept well afterwards (baring being worken by the older one this time) Maybe having something carby before bed and hypnoing would see you through the night and stop either mid-night waking for snacks or 5 am waking to start doing stuff

    Not sure waht else I can say to help other than I know how you feel, and it does suck, you've already said you don't berate yourslef for feeling down anymore and I think theat is one of the most positive things you can do.

    I think that depressive or manic tendancies are something that those of us who have then just have to learn to embrace as part of themselves, you will never be the same as someone who dosn't get these mood swings and they will never understand how pointless it all feels when you are down. That tendancy will always be there, you learn to manage it in a way that works for you.

    All the best
    You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

  3. #13
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    Hello yogibare!

    I have to make this quick because I am heading out to piano lessons with the kids, so I will write more later - but you might try reading a book called "The Edge Effect" by Eric Braverman MD. I struggle with depression, too, and your OP really resonates with me. Anyway, this is a very interesting book - it deals with the main neurotransmitters and how to balance them. The guy still likes his whole grains, but does not harp on them overly much; it is his supplement lists and other holistic info that interests me. As I just went Primal 6 months ago, I am working on myself at this time with the Primal. Your post reminded me that I had this book in my collection and I dug it back out just to be able to give you the proper title and author. See you soon!
    I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

  4. #14
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    Dear YogaBare: You are absolutely perfect, as God intended. Stop punishing yourself for who you are, and begin to embrace your 'personal style/nuances'. Half the battle is knowing who we are, our strengths, our weaknesses and all the good, the bad and the ugly.

    I'm guessing that you are a 'younger person' and I'm surmising this because all young people struggle with who they are, and how they fit into this world around them, while being 'accepted' by everyone else's values or methods of measurement. The beauty about becoming more senior in years (I'm 48), is that we begin to realize that, as individuals we are unique and worthy of respect, and no one needs to apologize.

    You remind me of my eldest son (now 26). As a teenager it was difficult for him to focus on any one task because of ADHD and being OCD.....buy by God, as an adult he has the ability to focus on an artistic project and work like a deamon until the project is done. He has the ability to focus with single-mindedness ----- and I suspect from your posting, you do too.

    Many highly talented entrepreneurs have the same personality/character traits that you have. I was impressed with your personal reflections (self-employment/a 9-5 job wouldn't suit you; self-awareness of your highs and lows and recognizing the signs). Your self-awareness is commendable and that comes with personal growth, and embracing who you are.

    Research tells us that if we have 5 good friends, then we are indeed very wealthy. As you travel through this life, ask yourself who your 'friends' are and whether they are worthy of having you as a true friend. Be honest with those that you trust and want to have in your life for many years. Be honest and open about your need for fun, outgoing friendship when you are in your 'high' cycle, and your need for solitaire and rest during your 'down' cycle. IF your friends are worthy of you, they will appreciate being taken into your confidence, and they will respect you more than you can imagine. Baring our souls to those we trust takes courage, but the rewards are equally wonderful. Reveal yourself, as you are, and who you are -- without any apologies. There is no need to apologize for who we are.

    Keep exploring ways in which your unique character/energy can exploit professional opportunities. I'll bet that when working with a team on a project --- you are like the EverReady Battery Bunny --- you'll go longer and harder than any of your teammates. From an employer's perspective, they NEED high energy, talented individuals like yourself. A savvy employer will also respect that you need some 'regrouping time' when you are in your 'low cycle'.

    Now, onto my relationship advice :-) THERE IS SOMEONE FOR EVERYONE IN THIS WORLD (repeat ad nauseum). I think of relationships in these terms: We all carry baggage -- every single one of us has unique baggage. Some of us carry Vitadinni luggage -- some of us carry no name luggage -- some of us carry flamboyant pink or purple luggage so we don't lose it in the airport. The reality is, we all carry luggage, and we will all find our partner who's luggage compliments our luggage. Often times, we are so consumed focusing on our own imperfections, that we fail to see that others are suffering just as much as we are. Becoming self-aware opens our eyes and our emotional intelligence to the needs of others. Once we focus on others, we begin to 'let go' of our need to be perfect.

    Yogabare: Over time, and as you become a little older, your ups and downs will become less intense. You are already well on your way to understanding yourself and massaging/managing your 'cycles'. Focus less on how to be more perfect, and open yourself to the possibility of trusting others around you. You'll be surprised at what others may not what you to know about them. Revealing our perceived weaknesses can be 'freeing'.

    Some of the most successful people I have worked with have the same character traits that you have--- and I thank God for these talented people every day -- because they are game changers. They think differently, they act differently, and they force the rest of us to think outside the box and to think differently. Embrace your differences, YogaBare --- because YOU are ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.

    /Lu
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    Start Date: 25-06-12 @ 161lbs
    Goal Reached: 30-09-12 @ 143lb. Now bouncing between 145lb - 149lb. I'd like less bounce and more consistency :-)

    Started Cross Fit 20.12.12 ---- Can't wait to submit my success story on the 1st anniversary of starting primal.

  5. #15
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    If your manic phases are associated with extreme grandiosity and delusions, even hallucinations, then I would worry about it. And if your depressive phases are associated with thoughts of suicide and actual plans to carry it out, I would worry about it. Worry means seek a psychiatrist, one who can prescribe medication. Real bipolar disorder has one of the highest rates of death of any mental illness, might even be the highest.

    But if your cycling is kinda less than actual bipolar disorder, I would try to stay out of the psychiatric system. I used to work in mental health and I'm pretty convinced that while what they can do with drugs and other treatments is pretty miraculous for the truly impaired, it's dangerous shit and they don't really know what they're doing. I'd look into that Nora Gedgaudas book or the Julia Ross book or both.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    If your manic phases are associated with extreme grandiosity and delusions, even hallucinations, then I would worry about it. And if your depressive phases are associated with thoughts of suicide and actual plans to carry it out, I would worry about it. Worry means seek a psychiatrist, one who can prescribe medication. Real bipolar disorder has one of the highest rates of death of any mental illness, might even be the highest.

    But if your cycling is kinda less than actual bipolar disorder, I would try to stay out of the psychiatric system. I used to work in mental health and I'm pretty convinced that while what they can do with drugs and other treatments is pretty miraculous for the truly impaired, it's dangerous shit and they don't really know what they're doing. I'd look into that Nora Gedgaudas book or the Julia Ross book or both.
    I agree re medicating. I don't know the technical differences between psychiatrists, therapists, etc., but it might be useful to just talk with a professional (and it is of course always your decision whether or not to fill an rx). I went to see one of the therapists at my university after a few months of being in a funk like I'd never experienced before (I was conscious of the fact that I was the same age as my brother was when he passed away, but that wasn't explicitly the cause of my moods). It was both anxiety-producing and -releasing to talk with someone about my family, since I don't ever do that, but it was a net positive effect. I only had a few meetings before I had the most depressed summer of my life at home, and I wish I had stuck with it the following year.

    If there's no one in your life that you share this stuff with (in person ; p ), it could be helpful. Might help you make some connections in addition to the ones you've already noticed.

  7. #17
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    Guys, thank you so, so much for the responses. I really appreciate them.

    This was actually the article I was reading right before I made my first post:

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...sanities.shtml
    and this one:
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles...gression.shtml

    I know Ray Peat is quite contentious around here, but the article is fascinating. It's so frustrating to feel at the mercy of your mood, and believe me I've tried other approaches (therapy - check, spirituality - check) which helped but my dalliance with Primal and the consequent understanding of physiology it's given me confirm to me that there is something going on at a biochemical level. It's a complex topic and people are often quick to dismiss it ("you're just having a bad day"), which is why I don't think there's been exhaustive research into it. Anyway, my point is that Ray Peat's articles are quite deep, and give me food for thought. If you guys suffer in the same way that I do they might be of interest to you
    Last edited by YogaBare; 01-18-2013 at 10:18 AM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelesswonder View Post
    My experience is with depression and anxiety.

    Now... disclaimer: The book "The Mood Cure" dabbles with supplements (esp. amino acids) to help deal, what are essentially, nutritional imbalances that result in emotional disorders. I believe it warns that you should NOT dabble with these supplements to try and "fix" bipolar disorder. If that is what you have, I don't know enough about the supposed chemical roots (because nobody really knows how these things work and it varies so much) to say for sure that it would be safe to try these things. What works for you during an up period (to help you sleep restfully) may not work for you during a down period (to help you feel more energized and less depressed). I still think it's worth a read. That, or "Primal Body Primal Mind", but I don't know if that addresses Bipolar disorder specifically.

    The swings you've described from high to low (inexplicably, not just because a project is over or something) do not sound like the regular ups and downs of life to me. It's normal to feel a bit deflated when something you've enjoyed is over, but if you are feeling totally down for no apparent reason (in terms of events/occurrences in your life), that's not normal. Of course, take "normal" with a grain of pink Himalayan sea salt.

    I absolutely understand the frustration. After struggling with depression for my teen years and my adult life so far (not that long, I suppose), it can be really maddening to go in cycles of "okay" and "totally not fucking okay" and it leaves you thinking, "This again?! Why am I not better yet? Why can't I handle it this time?" It's not your fault. Trying to blame yourself less is a wonderful idea, even if it can be difficult to impose.

    Have you had your hormones tested? I am curious how that and your cortisol might show up during an up or a down period.
    Hey NW, thanks so much for the words of wisdom. It's true that this whole thing is still such unknown territory. All these labels have emerged and I think they actually impede understanding because it's just grouping symptoms and creating mental illness clubs. Anyway....

    And cheers for the compassion. It has gotten better as I've gotten more self aware in that I no longer say "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING???!!!! " Instead I just become aware that ... it is happening. It's still painful, but I accept it more, and I'm currently trying to make friends with it. Like, actually trying to enjoy the 'down' phases where I can't get out of bed by rationalising : "This is exactly what I want to do, right now and I don't need to feel guilty about it".

    I've seen that book before, but it doesn't resonate with me... don't know why?
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal Rob View Post
    Hey, yep it was a Yogi bear ref, I'm dyslexic so only tend to half read 75% of the actuall words I look at (this also explains why my typing and spelling is somewhat erratic at times) so I tend to read things how they look at a glance so many forum names are misread in my head

    I tottaly get the black days or weeks, I've just had a couple of days of being an ablolute miserable c**t, don't know why, but then I ate nothing all day (my mind said wha't the point in eating you'll only get hungry again, which had been part of what was stressing me)and in evening ate lots and lots and lots of sugary crap - gluten free triple chocolate cookies, coconut macaroons, galaxy bar, maltesers and almost a whole packet of jordans contry crisp ceral (that's half a fecking kilo )

    I then felt slightly better and decided I probably need to eat more carbs all the time to stop binging, I think for me low carb + stress = constant hunger; massive crash and sugar binge. mod carb + stess = copable just.

    Can't really coment on the sleep as it's been 4 years since I had a decent period of good sleep (4 year old who only just started sleeping when next one came along who is the lightest nighttime sleeper ever).

    But I do know that this lack of sleep is causing me stress, and making me a grumpy bugger, and that is not helping me keep things in perspective, which means I'm more likely to go into a down.
    So I do agree that sorting your sleep out could be a good start to getting out of this cycle. I assume you have tried all the normal stuff, white noise at night, very dark room, cut out blue light before bed, eating something carby before bed.

    I would also recommend self hypnosis for sleep if you haven't tried it, we did hypno-birthing for the births of the childerbeasts and we used to listen to the CD before bed, there were times when neither of us could remember anything past the first relaxation bit (less than 2 mins in) and we always slept well afterwards (baring being worken by the older one this time) Maybe having something carby before bed and hypnoing would see you through the night and stop either mid-night waking for snacks or 5 am waking to start doing stuff

    Not sure waht else I can say to help other than I know how you feel, and it does suck, you've already said you don't berate yourslef for feeling down anymore and I think theat is one of the most positive things you can do.

    I think that depressive or manic tendancies are something that those of us who have then just have to learn to embrace as part of themselves, you will never be the same as someone who dosn't get these mood swings and they will never understand how pointless it all feels when you are down. That tendancy will always be there, you learn to manage it in a way that works for you.
    Hey Rob, Thanks so much for the long reply and all the advice I really appreciate it. And yeah, my username is supposed to evoke Yogi Bear!

    Interesting that you're noticing the correlation between low-carb and binging too. I've been trying 33:33:33 but it's not really working. Even if I eat carbs I still get the insomnia, which starts the chain of events...

    Yeah Ive tried all those sleep things, and I have a great meditation that I listen to that helps me fall asleep, but staying asleep is my issue. I wake up repeatedly throughout the night... unless I binge.

    And yeah, you're right about embracing it... I'm trying to stop feeling like such a loser for not being happy and "seizing the day". Seriously, is there any worse phrase for a depressed person?! I'm realising that "seizing the day" is just doing exactly what you want, and sometimes that means not facing the world. That small realisation has made me feel a lot less tortured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crabbcakes View Post
    Hello yogibare!

    I have to make this quick because I am heading out to piano lessons with the kids, so I will write more later - but you might try reading a book called "The Edge Effect" by Eric Braverman MD. I struggle with depression, too, and your OP really resonates with me. Anyway, this is a very interesting book - it deals with the main neurotransmitters and how to balance them. The guy still likes his whole grains, but does not harp on them overly much; it is his supplement lists and other holistic info that interests me. As I just went Primal 6 months ago, I am working on myself at this time with the Primal. Your post reminded me that I had this book in my collection and I dug it back out just to be able to give you the proper title and author. See you soon!
    Thanks so much for the recommendation Crabcakes - I just ordered it

    Quote Originally Posted by Louisa655 View Post
    Dear YogaBare: Embrace your differences, YogaBare --- because YOU are ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.

    /Lu
    Lu, that message brought tears to my eyes..! Thank you...

    I'm not SO young (31) so I've got three decades or experience, lol. I see that the "thinking" behind the depression has changed as I've gotten older, but essentially the emotional intensity has remained the same.

    Thanks for your kind words, observations, and reassurances. I do achieve a lot when I'm "up", but when I'm down I get so frustrated cos I keep getting these tastes of what I could "do with my life" if I could just sustain my energy (alhtough I'm trying to get over that phrase..!). The lows halt everything. But I'm hoping that by elimating the guilt it will help me get back up more rapidly.

    And you're right about opening up. I've opened up enormously in the last year towards family and friends and I've realised how empowering it is to be vulnerable. I actually had a massive breakthrough in my relationship with my parents by just telling them that I was scared they didn't approve of me or thought I was a failure. We all started crying. I told my close friends, and they are super-supportive, but I've still got the shame, because I don't think anyone realises how bad I actually get when I get down. I think think of myself as being weak. Anyway...

    Thanks again for your message
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    If your manic phases are associated with extreme grandiosity and delusions, even hallucinations, then I would worry about it. And if your depressive phases are associated with thoughts of suicide and actual plans to carry it out, I would worry about it. Worry means seek a psychiatrist, one who can prescribe medication. Real bipolar disorder has one of the highest rates of death of any mental illness, might even be the highest.

    But if your cycling is kinda less than actual bipolar disorder, I would try to stay out of the psychiatric system. I used to work in mental health and I'm pretty convinced that while what they can do with drugs and other treatments is pretty miraculous for the truly impaired, it's dangerous shit and they don't really know what they're doing. I'd look into that Nora Gedgaudas book or the Julia Ross book or both.
    Thanks sbhikes. It's a bit embarrassing, but yes, I did have those grandiose thoughts when I was in my early - mid twenties. They've definitely reduced and now when I'm up I just feel really good about myself and like I can achieve anything. I basically like a really well adjusted individual, lol. As I said in my OP, I do spiral into suicidal thoughts. Probably more frequently than is advisable. I feel uncomfortable talking about how dark that can be.

    Sometimes I do think I should just go on meds cos I do get worried about what I might do, but at the same time I really don't think they're the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmc View Post
    I agree re medicating. I don't know the technical differences between psychiatrists, therapists, etc., but it might be useful to just talk with a professional (and it is of course always your decision whether or not to fill an rx). I went to see one of the therapists at my university after a few months of being in a funk like I'd never experienced before (I was conscious of the fact that I was the same age as my brother was when he passed away, but that wasn't explicitly the cause of my moods). It was both anxiety-producing and -releasing to talk with someone about my family, since I don't ever do that, but it was a net positive effect. I only had a few meetings before I had the most depressed summer of my life at home, and I wish I had stuck with it the following year.

    If there's no one in your life that you share this stuff with (in person ; p ), it could be helpful. Might help you make some connections in addition to the ones you've already noticed.
    Thanks for your message sjmc Yeah, I've been for quite a bit of therapy... had quite a lot of trauma in the past which I knew I needed to work through. I also spent eight months in India, which is basically self help paradise, lol I'm not adverse to going back to talk to someone, and I will look into it, but I know this isn't just a psychological issue - it's multi factoral, and I really want to figure out if there's a way of balancing the infamous "chemical imbalance" without abandoning myself to Big Pharma.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

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