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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Interesting, but it doesn't really hold water, the hypothesis is a bit leaky at this point in time.
    It sits in accepted anthropology like primal does in accepted nutrition.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Oh, just joshin ya. Just shows what you get around here when you post before fact checking.
    Well I wasn't stating a "fact" about bananas. But I'll make a note to myself: MDA Forum -- exceptionally literal-minded folks.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Yes, but who gets the benefit of those SCTs, us or out little gut micro-budies?

    Fiber menace does specifically say that it is not anti-fiber as long as that is soluble fiber that comes along with naturally ingested foods. It is mostly against the rampant overuse of fibre as a laxative and fiber as a bulking additive in products. So, it does say that if your gut is healthy there is nothing "wrong" with eating a salad.

    I just question beyond "wrong" to "is it necessary or even beneficial?"

    I'm not sure I want anything fermenting in my intestines, thankyouverymuch. We are perfectly capable of thermoregulation without a gassy vat of fermenting celery fiber to help. And why can't the body supply SCTs to the colon via the circulatory system? Why is having it produces in situ beneficial? It is beneficial for the microbes. They love it. I eat to feed ME, not some freeloading microbes.
    The SCT's are a byproduct for the microbiota, so they break down the fibre and get life, by products are heat and SCT's and we get those, Win:Win situation, symbiosis in motion.

    I have seen too many indications that our antibiotic preoccupations are a major contributer to our ill health to disregard the microbiota and hold a special place for them in my heart, well maybe in my gut.

    As has been mentioned in the past, they outnumber us in cell count at 10:1 and are present on every external surface, skin and gut, they are actively communicating with our own cells through chemical signalling, we are an ecosystem, not a stand alone organism, we upset that ecosystem and a cascade ensues that we have no control over, they need us, we need them.

    Mind you I'm only talking the fruit and veg fibres in reasonable quantities, not the brans and shredded cardboard gut mascerators.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    It sits in accepted anthropology like primal does in accepted nutrition.
    Fair call.

  5. #405
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    The short chain fatty acids, the most important of which seems to be butyrate, can also be eaten directly. Butter is the richest source of butyrate around.

    Yes, the gut-buddies can produce some and we can make use of them but to me this seems like gleaning an already picked field. If you are a starving Grok, this gleaning could get you through a hard time. But why would we bother scavenging when we can eat what we need directly?

    I totally agree about the need to maintain a healthy immune system and that antisepticness is not beneficial in the long run when taken to extremes. But I still don't see why we need fiber to do that. There are lots of species of gut bacteria. The ones that digest your celery fiber for you are not necessarily involved in immunity.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    The short chain fatty acids, the most important of which seems to be butyrate, can also be eaten directly. Butter is the richest source of butyrate around.

    Yes, the gut-buddies can produce some and we can make use of them but to me this seems like gleaning an already picked field. If you are a starving Grok, this gleaning could get you through a hard time. But why would we bother scavenging when we can eat what we need directly?

    I totally agree about the need to maintain a healthy immune system and that antisepticness is not beneficial in the long run when taken to extremes. But I still don't see why we need fiber to do that. There are lots of species of gut bacteria. The ones that digest your celery fiber for you are not necessarily involved in immunity.
    Hi, Paleobird - I wanted to hit you up with something...

    I have been reading a bit recently on the ins and outs of insulin sensitivity. A recurring theme is that people who are less insulin sensitive do better on higher protein/fat diets and people who are more insulin sensitive do better with higher carb/lower fat.

    My question to you: Do you own a blood glucose monitor? I would love to see your results for a self-administered oral glucose tolerance test. It's easy to do, eat a potato or rice on an empty stomach and test BG every 15 minutes for an hour.

    I'm beginning to think that this may be the root of why so many do better on one type of diet while others do better on another.

    Anybody else own a blood tester and want to be a guinea pig?

    I've been checking mine for several weeks and find my insulin sensitivity increases daily with meals of potato.

    Just a thought for science' sake.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I have been reading a bit recently on the ins and outs of insulin sensitivity. A recurring theme is that people who are less insulin sensitive do better on higher protein/fat diets and people who are more insulin sensitive do better with higher carb/lower fat.

    My question to you: Do you own a blood glucose monitor? I would love to see your results for a self-administered oral glucose tolerance test. It's easy to do, eat a potato or rice on an empty stomach and test BG every 15 minutes for an hour.
    I'm beginning to think that this may be the root of why so many do better on one type of diet while others do better on another.
    Anybody else own a blood tester and want to be a guinea pig?
    I've been checking mine for several weeks and find my insulin sensitivity increases daily with meals of potato.
    No, I don't have one but I used to (my Dad was diabetic). So I did monitor my own at one time and my insulin sensitivity is fine. I know my insulin sensitivity was completely whacked back in the day after I had chemo. (This was monitored by docs.) But that slowly turned around on a low carb Primal diet.

    I think the people who do really well on the highER carb side are some combination of most of these things:
    1)Young
    2)Male
    3)Heavy exercisers
    4)Already at a fairly lean weight.

    And yes, most of the above probably correlates with good insulin sensitivity. I don't think that eating carb bombs is necessary however in order to have good insulin sensitivity. (I read your thread about the 2nd meal effect). You have excellent insulin sensitivity because you lost all that excess weight on a low carb Primal diet. Then you became the Spud King while looking to lose the last ten vanity pounds. Don't forget what it was that got you most of the way however. Low carb Primal "fixed" your insulin sensitivity so now you can enjoy your spuds.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    No, I don't have one but I used to (my Dad was diabetic). So I did monitor my own at one time and my insulin sensitivity is fine. I know my insulin sensitivity was completely whacked back in the day after I had chemo. (This was monitored by docs.) But that slowly turned around on a low carb Primal diet.

    I think the people who do really well on the highER carb side are some combination of most of these things:
    1)Young
    2)Male
    3)Heavy exercisers
    4)Already at a fairly lean weight.

    And yes, most of the above probably correlates with good insulin sensitivity. I don't think that eating carb bombs is necessary however in order to have good insulin sensitivity. (I read your thread about the 2nd meal effect). You have excellent insulin sensitivity because you lost all that excess weight on a low carb Primal diet. Then you became the Spud King while looking to lose the last ten vanity pounds. Don't forget what it was that got you most of the way however. Low carb Primal "fixed" your insulin sensitivity so now you can enjoy your spuds.
    Just some things that have got me thinking lately. There is a big discrepancy to how people do on the different ends of the paleo spectrum. People want a one-size-fits-all approach, and if there's one thing I have learned here in the last 2 years, it's that there isn't one.

    I'm wondering if people take insulin sensitivity into account at some point, if they might not fare better. I recently read this on insulin sensitivity:

    However, in practice, there are signs as to whether you have good insulin sensitivity or not and possibly whether you over-secrete insulin. Here’s two very simple questions to ask yourself regarding your response to diet.

    On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated? If the former, you have good insulin sensitivity; if the latter, you don’t.

    When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later? If the former, you probably have normal/low levels of insulin secretion; if the latter, you probably tend to over-secrete insulin which is causing blood glucose to crash which is making you sleepy and hungry.
    A couple other recurring problems with paleo/primal: High FBG, stalled weight with 10-20lbs to go, high LDL cholesterol

    All these are signs of insulin resistance. It makes me think that there are a large subset of people, who do fine with low carb up to a point, but then develop insulin resistance--the very thing that got them in trouble to begin with.

    I also have seen there are people who do just fine on low carb indefinitely.

    It does seem to be the young, male, weight-lifters who can do high-carb right from the start and thrive, and I think, also, that has to do with a person who is very insulin sensitive.

    I was just curious what someone like you, who has been thriving on LC, would see on an OGTT, and what your FBG is. When I was LC, my FBG was always around 110, but with potatoes in the mix, it's in the 90's. Timing of carb meals seems to be a factor also, which is what I was exploring in the other thread today.

    Later!

  9. #409
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    Well, I won't find out how I do on a heavy carb intake because 1)I don't like most starches and 2)VLC keeps the seizures away on less meds.

    I really think that if you are going to throw out a claim that LC Primal induces insulin resistance, you need to back it up. From the stories around this board it would seem that the opposite is true.

    Yes, there are lots of posts about people doing battle with that last stubborn 10lbs or so. I don't think that means that LC fails at that point, just that, if you wish to push your body to that level of leanness, then calorie restriction is necessary. You can do that by fasting or by eating so many spuds that you never want to see another in your life. Same mechanism. Lower calories.

  10. #410
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    BTW, Otzi, we are in total agreement that insulin sensitivity or lack thereof is very important. And, yes, I agree that people with good insulin sensitivity can handle a higher level of carbs in their diet.

    Being able to handle something and it being the optimal food, those however, are two different questions.

    Perhaps my insulin sensitivity has been restored so that I could "handle" more carbs. Well the thing that restored it was low carb Primal. Why change that which works?

    So, if I really loved tators and didn't need to maintain ketosis, I might include one now and then. But I don't like them anyway and ketosis is extremely important to me.

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