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Thread: Resistant Starch - A Solution In Search of a Problem page 19

  1. #181
    RSQueen's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Otzi is very good and no, it's not a coincidence. Yes, I'm affiliated with the company that makes Hi-maize. It's part of why I have the luxury of being the queen of RS - I know an awful lot about resistant starch in general and Hi-maize in particular. Researchers use this ingredient because it's been available in the food industry for a long time and it's consistent - an essential part of research. They can't use bananas because the quantity of RS changes every day and they can't use beans or potatoes because the sheer calories that you would have to add to the diet is mind-numbing. My job doesn't include blogging but I enjoy interacting with people with different perspectives about carbohydrates. It's just fun for me.

    The science isn't biased. Studies don't get published in the Journal of Nutrition or American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (or the New England Journal of Medicine or the Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology and the Japanese Journal of Dietary Fiber Research and the African Journal of Microbiology, etc) if they're not really good. It's not possible to buy that many people. If it were, Coke and Pepsi would have buried the anti-HFCS arguments long ago. You simply cannot push and get the quantity of scientific publications out there unless the science and the data is good and merits publishing. For those of you that believe everybody is against you - there's simply nothing I can say that will change your mind. I know that. But, for anybody that is trying to find something new and helpful, perhaps something that I've added to this thread has been useful. I'm sorry if you think I should have revealed how I got to be the RS Queen in the beginning. I consider it a privilege. The scientific community has huge debates going on right now about fermentation, the value of different types of fibers and whether the benefits come from reducing the postprandial blood sugar response or from fermentation. The international debates are frustrating but the quest to figure out new dietary approaches that contribute to health are real.

    I don't want to be a pest. If I can contribute to this conversation, please let me know. Otherwise, I won't bother you again.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSQueen View Post
    I don't want to be a pest. If I can contribute to this conversation, please let me know. Otherwise, I won't bother you again.
    I'm very glad you posted this, I was afraid I was wrong and chased you off. We usually get Vegans or strange food cultists, I was afraid you were one of those (Zach/Derpamix, I'm talking about you).

    The Primal Blueprint community here is totally against industrial processed foods, many of us believe HFCS in particular is what destroyed our metabolisms in the first place.

    I hope that some of the regulars see this thread and come up with some good questions for you. I don't think we've ever had a person here to Q&A from inside the corn processing industry.

    There do seem to be lots of promising studies with regard to RS. You can't blame us for wanting to get it from natural foods instead of a corn-based additive. That being said, do you think Hi-Maize is going to become a standard additive to foods? It seems like it is in Australia already, but I haven't heard about it here in the US.

    Any idea what foods in the US have Hi-Maize in them already?

    Thanks for coming clean! Sorry to 'out' you like that.

  3. #183
    RSQueen's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I'm very glad you posted this, I was afraid I was wrong and chased you off. We usually get Vegans or strange food cultists, I was afraid you were one of those (Zach/Derpamix, I'm talking about you).

    The Primal Blueprint community here is totally against industrial processed foods, many of us believe HFCS in particular is what destroyed our metabolisms in the first place.

    I hope that some of the regulars see this thread and come up with some good questions for you. I don't think we've ever had a person here to Q&A from inside the corn processing industry.

    There do seem to be lots of promising studies with regard to RS. You can't blame us for wanting to get it from natural foods instead of a corn-based additive. That being said, do you think Hi-Maize is going to become a standard additive to foods? It seems like it is in Australia already, but I haven't heard about it here in the US.

    Any idea what foods in the US have Hi-Maize in them already?

    Thanks for coming clean! Sorry to 'out' you like that.
    Thanks for not throwing me out. I was nervous this morning and had kinda figured that the gig was up. But, I'm open for questions that you want to throw at me, although I only know my own piece of the puzzle. I'll answer what I can. The first answer is - eat less sugar! But don't stop there. The second answer is - eat less refined flour! Both are duhhhs from a nutritional perspective.

    Of course you'd want to get whatever you need from plants. That's why I stepped in - I wanted you to at least have good information as you were figuring it out. There's a lot of discussion out there about resistant starch in potatoes. Partly because Prevention and Health magazines liked the idea and pushed it in two cookbooks. (Prevention's Skinny Carbs Diet and Health's CarbLovers Diet). That doesn't change the facts - it's tough to get a lot of RS from cooked and cooled potatoes. But, if you like them and if you can choke down raw potatoes, go for it.

    I'm surprised you haven't found Hi-maize USA Home Page yet. It lists the co-branded foods containing Hi-maize and where to get it in the US. Sainsbury's used to use it in bread in the UK but doesn't anymore, so you Londoners are out of luck. You would have found it by the Hi-maize logo on the bread package, but it's been gone for several years now. And yes, it's in more foods in the US although you'd have to dig really well or know exactly what you're looking for to find it. But since you don't eat processed foods anyway, you'll never run into it.

    If, however, you wanted to consider using the isolated ingredient as a supplement, you could actively improve the way your body manages carbohydrates and fat and get a healthier intestinal tract in the process. I know it's a progressive idea and probably far beyond the PB lifestyle, but if you're going to challenge and out me, I'll challenge you right back to think beyond your own boundaries.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSQueen View Post
    Citation is Maki et al, Resistant Starch from High-Amylose Maize Increases Insulin Sensitivity in Overweight and Obese Men, Journal of Nutrition, March 2012. See also Johnston et al, Resistant starch improves insulin sensitivity in metabolic syndrome, Diabetic Medicine, April 2010 and Robertson et al, Insulin-sensitizing effects of dietary resistant starch and effects on skeletal muscle and adipose tissue metabolism, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Sept 2005.

    Other types of fiber haven't been shown to improve insulin sensitivity like this (no exercise, no weight loss, immediate results). The Diabetes Prevention Program was able to achieve 53% improved insulin sensitivity with intensive exercise, counseling and weight loss.

    I still think it's pretty essential to have a healthy and functioning gut.
    In general, when it comes to these studies, careful attention needs to be devoted to reading them, because the terms they throw around have very specific meanings, sometimes almost diametrically opposed to what a layperson's usage of them would be.

    One such term of art is "insulin sensitivity". Sensitivity is a good thing, no? Well, that depends ... this is what the researchers had to say about their study ( they use SI to designate "sensitivity to insulin" ):

    Quote Originally Posted by Maki et al.
    The mechanisms underlying the effects of HAM-RS2 on SI are not well understood. One hypothesis is that fermentation end products, particularly SCFA, are involved in a cascade of events that may lead to improved SI (1517). SCFA (acetate, propionate, and butyrate) are absorbed from the colon and appear to suppress the activity of hormone-sensitive lipase, reducing release of FFA and glycerol from adipose depots, although the exact cellular processes through which this occurs have not been fully described (18). Metabolic studies have shown that raising the circulating FFA level for several hours will reduce SI and that lowering the FFA concentration will have the opposite effect, providing a possible mechanistic link between consumption of HAM-RS2 that undergoes fermentation in the colon and improved SI (17, 19, 20).
    So, effectively, you take away free fatty acids from adipose tissue as an energy substrate, and the body either shuts down or finds alternative energy sources. Dying in general is considered to be in poor taste metabolically, opting to oxidize circulating glucose would seem to be far preferable, so the body does just that.

    Now, if as a part of your dietary regime you insist on flooding your metabolism with glucose, this may be a good thing for you. As alternate strategies, you might want to try actually reducing the high glycemic carbohydrates you ingest, or maybe you could fast, perhaps a ketogenic diet might do the trick? All of these approaches will improve your insulin sensitivity. There are a myriad of options available to you, apart from having some industrial food processor stuff their donuts with HAM-RS2, because, hey, it increases insulin sensitivity! If you don't think that this is the principal motivation behind such studies, then you are refreshingly naive.

    Personally, I'm fond of circulating my FFAs from my adipose tissue. It is the only way I know of to actually decrease the size of said tissue.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  5. #185
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    Hey, PKlopp - This thread took quite a turn, huh? I'm glad you kept the pressure on me, though I was getting a bit frustrated with you there for a while.

    I think we should keep RSQueen around for a while and get to the truth behind RS.

    Here's what I think...a big 'food giant' company was making High Fructose Corn Syrup when suddenly the world became aware that HFCS was 'evil', sales dropped, and they had to re-brand themselves. Some smart employee realized that Resistant Starch was getting a lot of attention, so they diverted some corn from the HFCS factory to a new RS factory. They then had to produce lots of science to back their claims that everyone on the planet needs a heapin' helpin' of RS everyday. They diverted lots of investors' money into science and research and came up with lots of data showing the benefits of RS on colon health, insulin resistance, obesity, and whatever else.

    Now, if this is close to the truth, does it take away the fact that RS is needed and healthful?

    I would say, just from 'Primal Instinct' that our ancestors ate a lot of starchy foods, roots, tubers, seeds, etc... We probably evolved along with the gut bacteria that fed on the RS in their food. It seems odd to me, then, that an ancestral diet could be nearly completely lacking in RS, as are all low-carb diets many like to use.

    So, I guess that brings us back to your original question: What is the optimal amount of RS?

    I'm almost tempted to give RSQueen's challenge a try. How harmful could a spoonful a day of corn starch be? The only thing that concerns me is the genetically modified bit...Is the corn used for Hi-Maize one of the frankenfoods we talk about? Or is it just a natural strain of corn high in amylose?

  6. #186
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    I am reminded of a conversation with a friend who is a family practice doc who deals with lots of obesity and t2 diabetic issues. He said the paradigm is hard to shift because doctors need to follow the official guidelines or become vulnerable to malpractice suits should things go bad. Guidelines are set by government panels, whose membership is composed in significant part with scientists from pharma companies. They follow the science. Who has the money for doing the science? The pharma industry. It is not that the studies are poorly done. However, a craftily designed study that only asks certain questions will come up with a narrow and incomplete range of answers that often as not support the profit agenda of the industry.

  7. #187
    Zach's Avatar
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    At first i thought RSQueen was just Otzi's alter ego but a shill for a major corn corporation is even funnier.

    Otzi you are a complete fool. Good luck on this RS crap and whatever your next big diet "hack" is.

  8. #188
    otzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    At first i thought RSQueen was just Otzi's alter ego but a shill for a major corn corporation is even funnier.

    Otzi you are a complete fool. Good luck on this RS crap and whatever your next big diet "hack" is.
    You are right, you couldn't make this stuff up!

    I may be a complete fool, but nobody knows it better than me. I'm constantly challenging my beliefs, which is why I secretly like you and Derpamix posting on MDA...

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I may be a complete fool, but nobody knows it better than me. I'm constantly challenging my beliefs, which is why I secretly like you and Derpamix posting on MDA...
    Lol. Otzi, you're alright!
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  10. #190
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Here's what I think...a big 'food giant' company was making High Fructose Corn Syrup when suddenly the world became aware that HFCS was 'evil', sales dropped, and they had to re-brand themselves. Some smart employee realized that Resistant Starch was getting a lot of attention, so they diverted some corn from the HFCS factory to a new RS factory. They then had to produce lots of science to back their claims that everyone on the planet needs a heapin' helpin' of RS everyday. They diverted lots of investors' money into science and research and came up with lots of data showing the benefits of RS on colon health, insulin resistance, obesity, and whatever else.

    Now, if this is close to the truth, does it take away the fact that RS is needed and healthful?
    Is it a fact, Otzi? Given that there have been large stretches of human evolution that took place during ice ages (permafrost=no starchy plants growing) and we didn't die out, I would say we can do just fine without RS. I think of it not so much as *needed* thing but as something that won't hurt you.
    I think your analysis of what happened at the corn industry marketing conference is spot on. That website your queen mentioned is an ode to CW beliefs about fiber. It starts out with the unsubstantiated claim, "Everybody needs fiber", as if it were just the most obvious thing in the world.

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