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Thread: Counting a CW Med student? page

  1. #1
    fox's Avatar
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    Countering a CW Med student?

    Primal Fuel
    So I have a friend, she is in her 2nd year of med school. We have discussions about how I eat and why I started eating primal and she is skeptical. Skepticism is fine. I have no problem with that.

    But she thinks it is bologna and questions the science as I do my best to explain the reasoning. And I try not to argue, I just state what I think and why and try not to attack her reasoning.

    Anyway, she has asked me to send her some links to research and studies and she wants to see if they are credible to her.

    She argues that if there were credible/decent studies contradicting CW and what she is being taught, that they would let them know about such studies. I say that would take quite a lot of industry wide opinion changes in the field and that was not going to happen anytime soon (given all the political stuff involved).

    Anyway, besides some primal 101 posts from the site and the studies cited in some of those along with Good Calories, Bad Calories, the Primal Blueprint, The Paleo Diet.... are there any other studies or books I should add to the reading list?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by fox; 04-19-2010 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Barefoot Paul's Avatar
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    Does she believe in evolution? Most med/bio people at least accept evolution. Thats where most of my reasoning comes from.

  3. #3
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    Yea she does. And I agree with you. She wants to see the details I guess and be able to argue against them?

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    In the absence of a reason against, a "for" position needs not be justified. Tell her to prove to you that what you are eating is the least bit harmful.

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    42. Eaton SB, Konner MJ, Cordain L. Diet-dependent acid load, Paleolithic nutrition, and evolutionary health promotion. Am J Clin Nutr 2010;91:295–7.

    41. Eaton SB, Cordain L, Sparling PB. Evolution, body composition, insulin receptor competition, and insulin resistance. Prev Med. 2009;49:283-85.

    40. Ramsden CE, Faurot KR, Carrera-Bastos, P, Sperling LS, de Lorgeril M, Cordain L. Dietary fat quality and coronary heart disease prevention: a unified theory based on evolutionary, historical, global and modern perspectives. Curr Treat Options Cardiovasc Med; 2009;11:289-301.

    39. Treloar V, Logan Ac, Danby FW, Cordain L, Mann NJ. Comment on acne and glycemic index. J Am Acad Dermatol. 2008 Jan; 58(1): 175-7.

    38. Eaton SB, Cordain L, Sebastian A. The Ancestral Biomedical Environment In: Endothelial Biomedicine. W.C. Aird (Ed), Cambridge University Press, 2007, pp. 129-134.

    37. Cordain L. Dietary implications for the development of acne: a shifting paradigm. In: U.S. Dermatology Review II 2006, (Ed.,Bedlow, J). Touch Briefings Publications, London , 2006.

    36.Cordain L., Hickey MS. Ultraviolet radiation represents an evolutionary selective pressure for the south-to-north gradient of the MTHFR 677TT genotype. Am J Clin Nutr 2006;84:1243.

    35.Cordain L. Implications of Plio-Pleistocene Hominin Diets for Modern Humans. In: Early Hominin Diets: The Known, the Unknown, and the Unknowable. Ungar, P (Ed.), Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2006, pp 363-83

    34.O'Keefe JH Jr, Cordain L, Jones PG, Abuissa H. Coronary artery disease prognosis and C-reactive protein levels improve in proportion to percent lowering of low-density lipoprotein. Am J Cardiol. 2006 Jul 1;98(1):135-9.
    33. Cordain L. Saturated fat consumption in ancestral human diets: implications for contemporary intakes. In: Phytochemicals, Nutrient-Gene Interactions, Meskin MS, Bidlack WR, Randolph RK (Eds.), CRC Press (Taylor & Francis Group), 2006, pp. 115-126.

    32. Abuissa H, O’Keefe JH, Cordain, L. Realigning our 21st century diet and lifestyle with our hunter-gatherer genetic identity. Directions Psych 2005;25: SR1-SR10.
    31. Cordain, L. Implications for the role of diet in acne. Semin Cutan Med Surg 2005;24:84-91.
    30. Hoyt G, Hickey MS, Cordain L. Dissociation of the glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to whole and skimmed milk. Br J Nutr 2005;93:175-177.
    29. Loren Cordain, S. Boyd Eaton, Anthony Sebastian, Neil Mann, Staffan Lindeberg, Bruce A. Watkins, James H. O’Keefe, Janette Brand Miller. Origins and evolution of the western diet: Health implications for the 21st century. Am J Clin Nutr 2005;81:341-54.
    29a. This material includes comments about the article above and a reply by Dr. Cordain and his colleagues. Cordain L, Eaton SB, Sebastian A, Mann N, Lindeberg S, Watkins BA, O'Keefe JH, Brand-Miller J. Reply to SC Cunnane. Am J Clin Nutr 2005;82:483-84.
    28. O'Keefe JH, Cordain L, Harris, WH, Moe RM, Vogel R. Optimal low-density lipoprotein is 50 to 70 mg/dl. Lower is better and physiologically normal. J Am Coll Cardiol 2004;43: 2142-6.
    27. Lindeberg S, Cordain L, Rastam L, Ahren B. Serum uric acid in traditional Pacific Islanders and in Swedes. J Intern Med. 2004 Mar;255(3):373-8.
    26. O'Keefe JH Jr, Cordain L. Cardiovascular disease resulting from a diet and lifestyle at odds with our Paleolithic genome: how to become a 21st-century hunter-gatherer. Mayo Clin Proc 2004 Jan;79(1):101-8.
    26a. This "article" is a response written by Dr. Cordain to a letter about the article above, Cardiovascular disease resulting from a diet and lifestyle at odds with our Paleolithic genome: how to become a 21st-century hunter-gatherer. Please click on the item below for a complete viewing of the material.
    25. Lindeberg S, Cordain L, and Eaton SB. Biological and clinical potential of a Paleolithic diet. J Nutri Environ Med 2003; 13(3):149-160.
    24. Cordain L, Eades MR, Eades MD. Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just syndrome X. Comp Biochem Physiol Part A 2003;136:95-112.
    23. Lindeberg S, Ahren B, Nilsson A, Cordain L, Nilsson-Ehle P, Vessby B. Determinants of serum triglycerides and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol in traditional Trobriand Islanders: the Kitava Study. Scand J Clin Lab Invest 2003; 63: 175-180.
    22. Cordain L, Lindeberg S, Hurtado M, Hill K, Eaton SB, Brand-Miller J. Acne vulgaris: A disease of western civilization. Arch Dermatol 2002; 138:1584-90.

    22a. This "article" includes a series of letters written in response to the publication of the article above, Acne vulgaris: A disease of western civilization, and Dr. Cordain's response. Please click on all three items below for a complete viewing of all the material.
    21. Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Mann N, Hill K. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: Meat based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr 2002; 56 (suppl 1):S42-S52.
    20. Cordain L, Watkins BA, Florant GL, Kehler M, Rogers L, Li Y. Fatty acid analysis of wild ruminant tissues: Evolutionary implications for reducing diet-related chronic disease. Eur J Clin Nutr, 2002; 56:181-191.
    19. Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Lindeberg S, Jensen C. An evolutionary analysis of the etiology and pathogenesis of juvenile-onset myopia. Acta Ophthalmologica Scandinavica, 2002; 80:125-135.
    18. Eaton SB, Strassman BI, Nesse RM, Neel JV, Ewald PW, Williams GC, Weder AB, Eaton SB 3rd, Lindeberg S, Konner MJ, Mysterud I, Cordain L. Evolutionary health promotion. Prev Med 2002; 34:109-118.
    17. Eaton SB, Cordain L. Evolutionary Health Promotion. A consideration of common counter-arguments. Prev Med 2002; 34:119-123.
    16. Cordain L. The nutritional characteristics of a contemporary diet based upon Paleolithic food groups. J Am Nutraceut Assoc 2002; 5:15-24.
    15. Cordain L, Brand Miller J, Eaton SB, Mann N. Reply to ARP Walker. Am J Clin Nutr 2001; 73:354-55.
    14. Cordain L. Syndrome X: Just the tip of the hyperinsulinemia iceberg. Medikament 2001; 6:46-51.
    13. Cordain L, Watkins BA, Mann NJ. Fatty acid composition and energy density of foods available to African hominids: evolutionary implications for human brain development. World Rev Nutr Diet 2001, 90:144-161.
    12. Eaton SB, Cordain L, Eaton SB. An evolutionary foundation for health promotion. World Rev Nutr Diet 2001; 90:5-12.
    11. Cordain L, Brand Miller J, Eaton SB, Mann N, Holt SHA, Speth JD. Plant to animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in world wide hunter-gatherer diets. Am J Clin Nutr 2000, 71:682-92.
    10. Cordain L, Toohey L, Smith MJ, Hickey MS. Modulation of immune function by dietary lectins in rheumatoid arthritis. Brit J Nutr 2000, 83:207-217.
    9. Cordain, L., Brand Miller, J., Eaton, S.B. & Mann, N. Hunter-gatherer diets – a shore based perspective (letter). Am J Clin Nutrition 2000; 72:1585-86.
    8. Cordain, L., Brand Miller, J., Eaton, S.B. & Mann, N. (2000). Macronutrient estimations in hunter-gatherer diets (letter). Am J Clin Nutr 2000; 72:1589-90.
    7. Cordain L. Cereal grains: humanity’s double edged sword. World Rev Nutr Diet 1999; 84:19-73.
    6. Cordain L, Miller J, Mann N. Scant evidence of periodic starvation among hunter-gatherers. Diabetologia 1999; 42:383-84.
    5. Cordain L. Atherogenic potential of peanut oil-based monounsaturated fatty acids diets. Lipids 1998; 33:229-30.
    4. Eaton SB, Eaton SB, Cordain L, Sinclair A, Mann N. Dietary intake of long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids during the Paleolithic. World Rev Nutr Diet 1998; 83:12-23.
    3. Cordain, L., Gotshall, R.W. and Eaton, S.B. Physical activity, energy expenditure and fitness: an evolutionary perspective. International Journal of Sports Medicine 1998; 19:328-335.
    2. Cordain, L., Gotshall, R.W., Eaton, S.B. Evolutionary aspects of exercise. World Rev Nutr Diet 1997; 81:49-60.
    1. Eaton, S.B., Cordain, L. Old genes, new fuels: Nutritional changes since agriculture. World Rev Nutr Diet 1997; 81:26-37.

  6. #6
    federkeil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    In the absence of a reason against, a "for" position needs not be justified. Tell her to prove to you that what you are eating is the least bit harmful.
    ooooo, my favorite come back "You need to prove me wrong, I don't need to prove anything."

    Sounds like all the talks I've had from religious types trying to "save" me.

    I would start with information on sugar and cholesterol.

    Sugar : The Bitter Truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

    This is Gary Taubes presentation (author of Good Calories, Bad Calories) http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1765149&hl=en#

    And you can send him to Griff's post on Cholesterol http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...28Attempt-2%29
    I didn't like the rules you gave me, so I made some of my own.

    Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general. - Mark Rippetoe

  7. #7
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    wow. awesome. Thanks everyone!

    I like that Gary Taubes one. I haven't seen it before. I saw Sugar: The Bitter Truth and did send Griff's post.

    @beefcake - Did you paste that from somewhere? If so, where? I see it mentions clicking on links but nothing is linked.


    EDIT: Just saw the title is "Counting" instead of "Countering". That looks horrible. I tried to edit it but it is not taking.
    Last edited by fox; 04-19-2010 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by federkeil View Post
    ooooo, my favorite come back "You need to prove me wrong, I don't need to prove anything."

    Sounds like all the talks I've had from religious types trying to "save" me.
    Sounds like, but if you think about it, there should be a reason against something if it is a bad thing. There are plenty of reasons against eating CW. I can't find anything wrong with what I eat that wouldn't be much worse with more carbs and PUFA. Perhaps the task was to explain why CW eating is so much worse and compare and contrast. But if you look at Cordain's work it's basically humans eat paleo diet for millions of years, thrive and are huge and powerful and free of disease, enter modern food and....well you know the story. So I would say that the burden of proof rests on the side that contradicts millions of years of evolution.

    I mean perhaps the med student could explain why it is so bad without appealing to the lipid hypothesis because that is obviously bunk.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fox View Post
    @beefcake - Did you paste that from somewhere? If so, where? I see it mentions clicking on links but nothing is linked.
    Here you go:
    http://www.thepaleodiet.com/published_research/

  10. #10
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    The book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes is an excellent treatment of the history of the lipid hypothesis. Throw a copy of that at her. Good luck.

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