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Thread: LDL Particle Size page 2

  1. #11
    Artbuc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janie View Post
    All due respect but I didn't read anything to convince me that high LDL-P and LDL-C are benign. While I'm familiar w/Masterjohn through WPF, I also feel that while theory is great, as a PhD he does not successfully treat patients w/CAD or off the chart values as Dall & Dayspring do. And I could find nothing that questions the wisdom of the Metformin experiment.
    Good-luck and please keep us posted on your progress.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by janie View Post
    Orthodoc-
    As I understand it the main function of the NMR Lipoprofile is to measure LDL-P, which is the number of LDL Particles, not their size. There are some leading edge cardiologists (Thomas Dayspring and Tara Dall, for example) who think LDL-P is a more accurate measure of future CAD events than all other tests. You can hear a great lecture by Tara Dall on this subject on LecturePad (free). When I had the NMR done it also included LDL-C, HDL-C, trigs, TC HDL-P, small LDL-P, LDL size and a LP-IR score. This is distinct from a VAP which will provide you with the large fluffy vs small sticky A/B LDL types. According to Dall and Dayspring that is irrelevant and only the # of LDL particles is significant. Dall has had great success using Metformin to reduce particle count in her patients. In fact, I'm testing it out myself.

    Yes, you are correct. I had the same #'s you mentioned from LipoScience NMR test. The LDL-P is the total number, and mine is too high (1700). What is Metformin? I am reading "The Great Cholesterol Myth" and I believe they mention Niacin as an option to help reduce the numbers.

    As a side note, I am 5"11, 167 and bodyfat is roughly 16-17%.

  3. #13
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    Lots of good advice in this thread. I agree with pretty much everything that Artbuc has posted.

    Other things you can try doing are:

    1. Reduce carbohydrate intake - This will lower your trigs, which will decrease the amount of 'bad' LDL you have in your system. Note: Going <50g might impair Thyroid function (see 3 below)

    2. Increase your fat intake - This will increase both HDL and LDL, but the RATIO of the two should improve. Note: This is advice your doctor will probably strongly disagree with, since it will result in an LDL increase. Feel free to disregard if you want to avoid that potential confrontation.

    3. Take Iodine and Selenium (or even a T3 supplement) - This will improve your Thyroid function, and it's thyroid hormone that stimulates the LDL receptors that remove the 'bad' LDL from your system.

    Here's a good page from the Perfect Health Diet.
    Last edited by magicmerl; 01-02-2013 at 06:58 PM.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by janie View Post
    As I said, according to the cardiologists I mentioned, a high LDL-P is most predictive of CAD. Thus they recommend lowering LDL-P, and Metformin is a medication that they have had great success with and they find it is much more effective (and way less dangerous)than statins. In fact, Metformin has no significant negative history, is taken daily by many diabetics, and is now also being considered as a possible cancer treatment. My doctor -- and leading cardiologists -- find it much less dangerous than a high LDL-P. What information do you have that they don't that would have you think I'm playing with fire?
    My hubby turned into a mindless zombie on a 1/2 dose of Metformin. Obviously it has brain effects on some people; so he quit it. However, lp(a) is the most dangerous particle for forming plaques and blockages, and it is a fraction of LDL that can be measured, but needs to be requested.
    However, LDL is necessary in the body. Newest research is lifting the tired old "bad cholesterol" image that it has acquired. Check it out.
    Last edited by Paysan; 01-03-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  5. #15
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    If your reading the great cholesterol myth you will notice:

    1. Trigs and trigs to HDL ratio is the best way to determine CD. Your ratio seems great.

    2. LDL B particles are what you need to see. Those are the bad ones, however; they are ONLY BAD if they under the right circumstances, eg: inflammation ect..

  6. #16
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    I have read through this thread and see that knowledge of LDL-P is well researched. Just a note to anyone who may feel that LDL-P levels are not crucial to heart disease or possible heart attack, here is my story. My husband went through his normal physical testing which included testing of LDL an HDL along with LDL-P. His overall cholesterol was 199 however his LDL-P, small particles was 2097. This was left untreated by his cardiologist and 5 months later he died after a massive heart attack. We did not find out this numbers until we pulled medical records. Sadly we were not educated about these numbers. All I can say is pay attention and be your own health advocate. I always remind myself it is still the "practice of medicine".

  7. #17
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    Thank you for sharing your sad experience, caj0226. I've read of many cases like your husband's where the standard lipid panel was benign and the doctor considered the patient to be low risk, but never ordered or acted on a high LDL-P score in a patient that later had a heart attack. I hugely agree with you that we must each be our own health advocate.

    There is so much contrary data on CAD risk. My LDL-P is high (the Metformin did not lower) and I've done all that Magicmerl mentioned here (been eating low carb/high fat & taking Armour thyroid for over 3 years now) and that too has made no difference to LDL-P. I'm reluctant to go the statin route b/c I'm not sure it is effective or wise. So I've upped my fish oil, CoQ10 & magnesium and also added acetyl-L-carnitine & niacin as per dosages recommended by Drs. Stephen Sinatra & Jonny Bowden. Will get a repeat test in October.

    So sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing it as it may help others. If LDL-P is the smoking gun, many are not aware of testing for it, including many docs.
    Starting Weight: 197.5
    Current Weight: 123
    Lost 75# eating low carb (20-40 g) and then MDA primal low carb. Tried many other options but only LC helped me lose weight and improve health. Now at a good weight, I find my body can tolerate a few more carbs but rarely go over 100 g.

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