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Thread: Shangri-La Diet - setpoint success at last page 17

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    Somehow, it's not about tongue-based taste sensations, but about the flavour - all those aromas, chemicals etc. that hit the sensors in the back of your nose/pharynx area and are the more complex sensations of flavour. They seem to have a direct line to the pleasure centres of the brain or something.
    Let's suppose for a minute that this is 100% gospel truth and there is a setpoint based on this reaction, then what would be the result of all of our flavorful, zero-calorie treats like diet sodas, falvored, sugar-free coffee drinks, and sugar-free gum...all the tastes and flavors of real food with zero calories. Seems like that would be a good way to trick the body into eating more!

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    My "naturally thin" friend used to tell me "eat less", that was his answer to obesity. I always used to think the answer HAD to be more complicated than that, because "insert excuse".

    Years later through extensive research and trying many diets, I did in fact realize that the answer was to eat less. He said, "so I was right all along all these years?"

    Yes he was, and I wish I knew that 20 years ago.
    A couple years ago, a company came into town called "Ideal Weight". they gave free seminars and offered counselling to people, sold them supplements and packaged meals. 8 or 10 people where I work went on the plan and all lost huge amounts of weight. I started Primal about the same time and lost a little slower. Now 2 years later, all of them are off the plan and have gained all their weight back. They say things like, 'it's not sustainable' or 'I'd rather be fat than starving all the time'.

    When people first noticed I was losing so much weight, they assumed I was on Ideal Weight. After all those folks gained it back and I haven't they started asking questions. I point them to paleo/primal, but most aren't really interested. People want quick fixes and gimmicks. I have helped a few people to see that what you eat is way more important than anything.

    To tell an obese person to 'just eat less' is such a cop out. I think if an obese person's first attempt at dieting was the Shangri-La Diet and they lost a bunch of weight without ever really learning how to eat healthy, it would be a huge failure. But for someone on a Primal Journey, why not give it a try. If nothing else, you'd be incorporating some healthy fats in your diet for a while. If you started gaining--quit. If you started losing--woo hoo!

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Let's suppose for a minute that this is 100% gospel truth and there is a setpoint based on this reaction, then what would be the result of all of our flavorful, zero-calorie treats like diet sodas, falvored, sugar-free coffee drinks, and sugar-free gum...all the tastes and flavors of real food with zero calories. Seems like that would be a good way to trick the body into eating more!
    That's exactly right! It's part of Dr. Robert's hypothesis that one of the reasons we have higher setpoints is what he calls "ditto calories", the processed, always-tastes-identical industrial "foods" that provide "food" sensations without nutrients and/or calories.

    If you're really interested in his theories, read his book. It's short and not too complicated, but he goes into the various applications of his "hypothesis". Might be in your public library.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    That's exactly right! It's part of Dr. Robert's hypothesis that one of the reasons we have higher setpoints is what he calls "ditto calories", the processed, always-tastes-identical industrial "foods" that provide "food" sensations without nutrients and/or calories.....
    Marthat - What is your 'gut feel' for the SLD? You did it for a very long time it seems...did it do anything lasting for you? Would you recommend it to others? What do you think it's limitations are?
    Thanks

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I don't think anyone here has a dog in this fight--it's just a neat phenomenon that needs dissecting...I went to Google Scholar and searched "Loss of smell obesity" "Loss of taste obesity" and a couple other combos and got quite a few interesting hits like:

    ScienceDirect.com - Physiology & Behavior - Sweet tooth reconsidered: Taste responsiveness in human obesity which says "We hypothesize that sensory preferences for dietary sugars and fats are determined by body-weight status and may affect the patterns of food consumption."

    and: http://philosophy.scurvy.net/docs/cl...psychology.pdf which says "Obese, mildly overweight and normal weight females rated glucose solutions of increasing concentrations for perceived intensity and pleasantness. Obese and mildly overweight subjects found increasingly sweet solutions more pleasant than did normals. Weight loss by dieting did not affect this relationship. Weight loss due to intestinal bypass surgery altered ratings of the pleasantness of glucose solutions, making them appear more similar to ratings given by normal weight individuals. Finally, after weight loss by dieting, all weight groups found the sweet taste of milkshake pleasant even after a preload and consumed large amounts of the milkshake. Prior to weight loss, ingestion of a preload had produced lowered pleasantness ratings and reduced consumption."

    and: http://philosophy.scurvy.net/docs/cl...psychology.pdf a review of the Shangri-La diet which says "So Roberts tried to game this Stone Age system. What if he could keep his thermostat
    low by sending fewer flavor signals? One obvious solution was a bland diet, but that
    didn't interest Roberts. (He is, in fact, a serious foodie.) After a great deal of
    experimenting, he discovered two agents capable of tricking the set-point system. A few
    tablespoons of unflavored oil (he used canola or extra light olive oil), swallowed a few
    times a day between mealtimes, gave his body some calories but didn't trip the signal to
    stock up on more. Several ounces of sugar water (he used granulated fructose, which has
    a lower glycemic index than table sugar) produced the same effect. (Sweetness does not
    seem to act as a "flavor" in the body's caloric-signaling system.)
    The results were astounding. Roberts lost 40 pounds and never gained it back. He could
    eat pretty much whenever and whatever he wanted, but he was far less hungry than he
    had ever been. Friends and colleagues tried his diet, usually with similar results. His
    regimen seems to satisfy a set of requirements that many commercial diets do not: it was
    easy, built on a scientific theory and, most important, it did not leave Roberts hungry.
    I have a feeling that this possibly works similarly to how the weeklong potato diet works; eating only one thing for a week causes people to only eat as much as they need, not as much as they want (I know this is a super oversimplification).

    I just kind of realized that this is what's been going on with me lately; for some reason I started really wanting bland foods like boiled potatoes or white rice or steamed salmon (with only a little salt, no other seasonings). Simultaneously, my appetite started dropping, even though I'm eating a pretty high carb diet.

    I actual kind of have to *force* myself to eat because even if I get hungry, I don't really care about food. Eating is something I do out of necessity, not out of pleasure. And the bizarre thing is that not getting pleasure from food is making me the happiest I've ever been, because I'm finding pleasure in other aspects of my life which are deeper and more long lasting than the pleasure I got from food.

    I think there really is something to the complex taste sensation/hunger connection. I don't understand it, myself, but it's not that much of a stretch considering how common it is to see fat people drinking diet sodas and other chemically-flavored low calorie foods. Ultimately, it all comes back to eating real food, not too much (Hey, Michael Pollen got the first 2 parts right!), and if taking some flavorless oil or sugar water helps with the 'not too much' part, who cares why it works?

  6. #166
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    Bestbetter I think you are on to something interesting: if you take the salt/hyper-sweet/crispy fried (which are modern inventions) out of food then it's pretty hard to overeat. Without those components it's more likely one will know when one has had enough. Also if you encounter one of these taste sensations solo it's easier not to over-consume them. Take for example fat w/o salt it's hard to eat too much of it. As a former chef it's hard for me to defend eating bland food but I can see the efficacy of the diet.

  7. #167
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    Oh, and I hope Ripped takes careful note of that last paragraph. Eat less calories, oh really, dude? Thanks, that is SUPER helpful. NEVER would have thought of that on my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Good. Most people are too retarded to get this part. That's why they're disgustingly obese.
    Sorry, but eating less of the wrong foods is not enough when you have a deranged sugar metabolism. You are talking about living in constant misery and, in my case, physical pain. Eating less didn't make me smaller, it only made me hungrier.. until I got to the point I was hungry all the time even right after a large meal.. so I just went hungry. I don't go hungry now and I'm more than 30 lbs smaller.

    You don't know what you are talking about.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Marthat - What is your 'gut feel' for the SLD? You did it for a very long time it seems...did it do anything lasting for you? Would you recommend it to others? What do you think it's limitations are?
    Thanks
    My "gut" feeling is that there is something to SLD. It worked for me (anticdotal, I know, but n=1 is a popular concept around here). I don't understand the actual biochemical mechanism - not sure that anyone does, especially Dr. Roberts, as he is a psychologist, not a physiologist. As such, he looks more at the convergence of our biology with our behaviors, hence his "outside the box" thinking about alot of things (like standing on one leg for increased alertness or looking at faces for extended periods to combat depression).

    I busted through a very stubborn setpoint within days of starting SLD. And I kept the weight down for several years. (Prior to that, I had trained for 2 full walking marathons with only a 7 lb weight loss and did both races at about 12-15 lbs higher than I weigh right now.) It was my first excursion off the CW path of my dietetic training and my first inking that "fat is not evil". In that respect alone, it was lifechanging for me. But the appetite suppression and the control that that gave me was mind-blowing - a totally different relationship with food. And I was so incredibly happy that summer as I lost weight, I can still remember the glow of those heady days of losing weight so effortlessly. Maybe that was simply the effect of a higher fat diet, I don't know. It wasn't a huge amount of weight - a total of 18 lbs at my lowest, but I wasn't really overweight to start with, just a bit "thick".

    It's one of those things that I don't have to analyse to death. It's not about whether it works for me - it did work for me. Like the potato hack - it works when I work it. Just gotta get back onto it. Over the hump of inertia...

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    My "naturally thin" friend used to tell me "eat less", that was his answer to obesity. I always used to think the answer HAD to be more complicated than that, because "insert excuse".

    Years later through extensive research and trying many diets, I did in fact realize that the answer was to eat less. He said, "so I was right all along all these years?"

    Yes he was, and I wish I knew that 20 years ago.
    i don't like talking about my serious issues that much because frankly, who cares right?

    but i'm getting a little annoyed. not at you specifically. but this type of post.

    i went through many years very depressed, sometimes my appetite would be high, most times it would be low and the remaining amount of time it would be zero

    for an extended period of time i ate literally nothing more than a few bites of food a day

    i didn't gain weight, and i sure as hell didn't lose it either. why? because i am a special snowflake just like every one else. eating less worked for you, it doesn't work for me. my body should have cannibalized a great deal of its fat stores but it did not

    until you (and the sugar pushers) can tell me why exactly your ways do not work for me, it'd work in your favor by adding at the end of your posts the letters I M O
    beautiful
    yeah you are

    Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    That's exactly right! It's part of Dr. Robert's hypothesis that one of the reasons we have higher setpoints is what he calls "ditto calories", the processed, always-tastes-identical industrial "foods" that provide "food" sensations without nutrients and/or calories.

    If you're really interested in his theories, read his book. It's short and not too complicated, but he goes into the various applications of his "hypothesis". Might be in your public library.
    Based on the paper we read, these would be high-pleasure, low nutrient foods, which would also lead to overconsumption/consuming more calories when eating nutritious food. Thus, raising weight.

    I still don't understand "set point" and how it "moves." But I haven't read the paper again. I'm sure it's in there.

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