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Thread: Shangri-La Diet - setpoint success at last page 13

  1. #121
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    In a fully functional animal, including humans, there are several feedback mechanisms to let the brain know the body is 'full', it isn't a conscious decision. Sure, a person can consciously overeat and get fat, or be force fed and get fat, and in essence, when eating a SAD high in sugar and seed oil, we are force feeding ourselves beyond what the brain can compensate for--so it does the best it can...the brain initiates survival strategies like physiological insulin resistance, for instance.

    The feedback in the hunger-driven systems is normally accomplished by those things that are hard to understand--insulin, leptin, ghrelin, cortisol, melatonin, etc...

    Any normally functioning animal, including humans, should be able to be fed ad libitum or 'free choice', meaning that you should be able to live in a banquet hall full of all the foods in the world and you'd only eat what you need to thrive. It's also well known that there is an internally controlled weight setpoint. The normally functioning body wants to stay at a certain weight and has ways to make minor changes...most of the excess calories you consume are burnt at night while you sleep through the manipulation of uncoupling proteins and increased body temp. I don't think this can keep up, though, with constant overfeedings on poor nutrition foods.

    The weight setpoint is more obvious in animals...take a flock of pen-raised chickens; feed them ad libitum, with allowances for sex and breed, they will all be the same weight. Look at a herd of deer or a troop of monkeys--they are all weight normalized within a narrow band. I think if you could go back in time, you'd see the same thing in a village of paleolithic people.

    Dogs, cats, hamsters, birds, chickens, pigs, cows, horses, monkeys...the list goes on, can all be fed 'free choice'. Humans are capable of this as well, but just as with animals being fed free choice, if you throw them a treat, they will eat it despite being full. Throw your dog enough treats and eventually he will become tired of them and they are no longer a treat and he will stop eating them.

    Humans are constantly being bombarded by treats that lead us to overeat. Most of us have broken feedback loops on hunger, whether from out-of-synch circadian cycles, improper nutrition, psychological issues, medical issues, etc...

    It seems to me the SLD may be a way to circumvent some of the normal feedback signals and help a person 'get their groove back' so to speak concerning a weight set-point.
    See, therein lies the problem. Your speaking of feed back loops and such (leptin) indicating the abundance or scarcity of energy in our system. So we're actually back to speaking of hormonal health. In a state of homeostasis and without bombarding our system with items that cause hormonal dysfunction leading to the breakdown of these systems then we should move towards a state of naturally healthy leanness. This is the entire premise of the PB and paleo lifestyle. If your looking at animals in the wild they are at a healthy weight from eating foods they should be consuming and acting in the manner that fits their nature. The part of set point theory that I don't get is that your trying in some manner to "trick" this system. Isn't that just a work around for the true issue of hormonal dysfunction?

    Hey, I'm quite more versed in A and P than I am in psychology. So I will admit my own confirmation bias here and say that set point may very well play some psychological role. But, I think it only does so in the context of our current food culture of hyperpalatable foods with addictive ingredients.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    At this point, following PHD, I'm eating exactly 1 pound of potatoes (which is under 500kcal), 1 pound of fruit and veggies, 1 pound of meat w/fat, and then some discretionary stuff like chocolate, nuts, cheese whatever. I find it's a very intuitive way to eat and the macros/calories come out to 30/20/50 (C-P-F) @ 2000-2500 kcal. Using the gross weight is much easier than trying to figure individual calories/weights/macros, etc... And. since Mark Sisson is a fan, I don't mind talking about it here.
    OK....I'm curious why such a high weight of veggies/fruits. My understanding of their diet has always been veggies and fruit as condiments or flavoring type thing.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    OK....I'm curious why such a high weight of veggies/fruits. My understanding of their diet has always been veggies and fruit as condiments or flavoring type thing.
    We should probably start a PHD thread soon, but 1 pound of potato and 1 pound of fruit/veg isn't all that much.

    I went to fitday, and plugged in 1 pound of potato, 1/4 pound each of banana, brocolli, spinach, and bell pepper. In total, this is only 615 calories, 470 of them coming from the potato. It is also 123g carbs, with 87 coming from the potato.

    Now, add to this: .75lbs of beef steak and 1/4lbs of chicken livers and you are at 1400kcal, and now at 115g of protein, too.

    The above is kind of my baseline of PHD food for the day. However, I'm also going to eat some almonds, chocolate, maybe drink a glass of wine, and add some butter or coconut oil in there as well.

    Actually, the PHD was a very easy transition. I took how I was already eating on PB, decreased the protein a bit, and added 2 potatoes a day. I think I was eating too much protein on a daily basis and getting zero starch/resistant starch.

    In the 2 weeks or so I have been doing this, my weight did not increase, as I predicted it would due to water gain, and also I don't wake up at 2-3am like I have been doing for the last year on PB. I feel awesome with the added starch and find I am feeling really good after working out, and I find I feel 'fuller' after dinner.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post

    Dogs, cats, hamsters, birds, chickens, pigs, cows, horses, monkeys...the list goes on, can all be fed 'free choice'. Humans are capable of this as well, but just as with animals being fed free choice, if you throw them a treat, they will eat it despite being full. Throw your dog enough treats and eventually he will become tired of them and they are no longer a treat and he will stop eating them.
    OK... anyone who has ever kept many domestic animals knows that "free choice" feeding doesn't work with all animals.
    With a certain percentage of dogs, cats, horses, goats, ect. YES.... but not ALL by any means.
    (I'm not going to include cows, pigs here since for the most part they are intended to gain weight and get fat ASAP for consumption purposes... but among dairy cows if you "free feed" you are going to be in big trouble FAST.)

    Almost anyone who has kept even a few dogs or cats, or any horse... OMG horses!... can tell you that there is always the one in the house that will eat until they are a tub of lard.

    And what is this you say about a dog getting tired of treats. I have a 10 year old Schnau that after 10years will STILL gobble down literally anything that hits the floor... including whole cloves of raw garlic. But hey, at least that is novel. His only requirement that something be a "treat" is that it comes from MY HAND... when doing training practice I use plain dog food that he eats everyday and he acts like it's the best shit ever. My other little terrier is a mutt who is built kind of like an over grown Dachschund... 35lbs.... he would be as wide as he is long if he was "free fed". He has no off button when it comes to food. None. Zero! He would gorge himself until he needed a trip to the vet.

    My 95lb White GSD on the other hand monitors his intake very well... I can't exactly "free feed" because of the other two dogs, but he is given two ample meals per day. Sometimes he eats all of his meals, other times he leaves some, and he maintains his EXTREMELY athletic and muscular physical shape perfectly.
    The GSD is also extremely particular about "treats" and only accepts real meat and dairy. Anything else offered will garner a look of disdain and be left as he walks away insulted. The number of treats is also pretty limited even if they are favorites like real rare or raw meat. Though if he's hungry that limit my be a pound or so...
    He'd really much rather be rewarded with a toss of his BALL!

    I have also had two adopted porch cats (strays I care for... spayed, shots, wormed, etc. of course, but not in my home because I'm allergic) that are "free-fed" ... one always slim and trim, one chubby.

    I have plenty of friends and family who have this same experience.
    My mother-in-law for instance rescued 4 kittens from a single litter about 2 years ago... the mother was feral.
    3 of them are normal weight and could be "free fed", the 4th one... nope. Freaking PIG cat. Weighs twice as much as the others. Fatty catty will snarf down her own food then try to eat theirs at feeding time too. Even on measured portions she is fatter.

    Anytime you take an animal out of it's natural environment and give it access to food "free choice" the fact that some metabolisms more thrifty (the "thrifty" gene expression may have is place in saving animals during famines), or who have heartier appetites (again, possible that asserting a heartier appetite might have played a role in survival in hard times in the past) are going to become obvious.

    I think you are missing the boat here. Metabolism is simply variable, as is appetite, and there may be reasons for that that are deeper than being "broken". We are not born carbon copies of each other, and there are some very good reasons for that.
    Appetite control/suppression through fat is a good choice for those who need the extra help. And with CO there is the possible benefit of metabolism boost.
    Last edited by cori93437; 01-06-2013 at 10:36 AM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  5. #125
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    Yes, but I think horses are the best example. Because you can put them out on a huge pasture... my horses are on 160 acres, mostly wooded with a creek and well water and minerals. One horse is normal, one is fat. Always fat unless I dry lot him and limit his hay. With cats/dogs etc, we are talking about feeding them a mixed diet where they are forced to eat certain foods at a certain ratio. With the horses, they can pick whatever plant they want in whatever ratios and quantities they want, yet one continues to be overweight. You know what they eat most? The grass they just ate.. the stuff that's stressed and has more SUGAR in it, trying to recover (jerks). Now if the horses were forced to walk several miles per day to get all they needed, different story. Much like humans today, they just don't have to work enough to get their food- and their food is richer (improved grasses). And so their survivor genetics overachieve and cause obesity. When I was working said fat horse a little each day, he was slimmer.

    Insulin resistant horses, when you give them low sugar hay, they lose weight as well as lots of other improvements (better hoof quality, better coat etc). Sounds familiar huh? You gotta earn that sugar with work. And if you are already pretty metabolically messed up, even work may not earn your sugar for you anymore.

    If my fat horse lived with the mustangs, he would not be fat. Because he would be doing more work for less sugar. Simple as that. Also less stress, although his life is pretty stress free... I think there is something about a horse that running completely in the open and free land.. no fences, is simply better for them. It's a mental captivity even in a large field. Their nature is to always be moving.

  6. #126
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    Yeah Ashley... That's why my "OMG horses!" Comment.
    If any domestic animal can get fat on NOTHING... a horse can do it.
    I didn't even want to start on that one.
    IMO they are worse than all the other domestic animals he mentioned together.
    Or at least it seems like a higher proportion of them are guilty of it...
    They needed that "thrifty gene" in their near past to get by on browse that was not as rich and having to expend much more energy to get it. Now that thrifty gene means a bunch of fat horses on pasture that need to be locked up half the day to balance them. Or like you said, kept off pasture and on low sugar hay. Which is a shame for the horse...
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post

    And what is this you say about a dog getting tired of treats. I have a 10 year old Schnau that after 10years will STILL gobble down literally anything that hits the floor... including whole cloves of raw garlic. But hey, at least that is novel. His only requirement that something be a "treat" is that it comes from MY HAND... when doing training practice I use plain dog food that he eats everyday and he acts like it's the best shit ever. My other little terrier is a mutt who is built kind of like an over grown Dachschund... 35lbs.... he would be as wide as he is long if he was "free fed". He has no off button when it comes to food. None. Zero! He would gorge himself until he needed a trip to the vet.

    Anytime you take an animal out of it's natural environment and give it access to food "free choice" the fact that some metabolisms more thrifty (the "thrifty" gene expression may have is place in saving animals during famines), or who have heartier appetites (again, possible that asserting a heartier appetite might have played a role in survival in hard times in the past) are going to become obvious.
    I concur with Cori. I train my dogs with their kibble and you'd think it was the best thing they'd ever had! I'm pretty sure my dogs (rat terrier and corgi) do not have a set point or off button when it comes to eating, they gorge like they will never get more food.

  8. #128
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    I have parrots. One is fat and one is not. Both eat ad lib. It's unknown what their natural diet is.

    There's so little research on these species in the wild. I have not found the answers to what their native diets are. Only guesses. The best I can find is my fat parrot has been photographed eating mangos in the "wild". I put that in quotes because I think the mangos in the photograph were on a mango farm.

    In my experience, many pet parrots will eat nearly anything including meat and bacon, bagels and cream cheese, and even fresh flowers. Some won't eat hardly anything. None are supposed to eat seeds but they are usually fed them, which causes them to die early with degenerative and nutritional diseases.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    We should probably start a PHD thread soon, but 1 pound of potato and 1 pound of fruit/veg isn't all that much.

    I went to fitday, and plugged in 1 pound of potato, 1/4 pound each of banana, brocolli, spinach, and bell pepper. In total, this is only 615 calories, 470 of them coming from the potato. It is also 123g carbs, with 87 coming from the potato.

    Now, add to this: .75lbs of beef steak and 1/4lbs of chicken livers and you are at 1400kcal, and now at 115g of protein, too.

    The above is kind of my baseline of PHD food for the day. However, I'm also going to eat some almonds, chocolate, maybe drink a glass of wine, and add some butter or coconut oil in there as well.

    Actually, the PHD was a very easy transition. I took how I was already eating on PB, decreased the protein a bit, and added 2 potatoes a day. I think I was eating too much protein on a daily basis and getting zero starch/resistant starch.

    In the 2 weeks or so I have been doing this, my weight did not increase, as I predicted it would due to water gain, and also I don't wake up at 2-3am like I have been doing for the last year on PB. I feel awesome with the added starch and find I am feeling really good after working out, and I find I feel 'fuller' after dinner.
    This is interesting, I have not read the book, but looked at the food qtys on their site. It certainly is a simple way to eat, simpler than really micro analysing your intake. Perhaps it would work well with the 2 tbsp of coconut oil during the day, midway between the meals.

    My issue is that I really want to get down to 10% BF, probably around 13-14 now. Interested to see if 100+ grms of carbs would allow that, but depends also on the calorie deficit.

    Last night, I decided to eat 3-4 small potatoes with my evening meal, after a day of low carb, blimey, I slept like a baby all night, felt wonderful.

    I am considering cycling between a PHD style day and a really low carb day to see how that works. Would be interested in a PHD thread Otzi, if you want to start one.

    I'm not sold on the idea of safe starch, or the need for more increased carbs (depending on activities etc), but am definitely willing to experiment

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I wasn't saying I would EAT macadamia nuts. I would swallow them like pills with a glass of water. Maybe halves. I tried swallowing beef tallow like pills this morning but it got stuck in my throat. Chunks too big.

    It doesn't bother me to skip a meal, but it does bother me to be hungry. I am interested in appetite suppressant. I don't know if I like the whole flavorless thing. I mean, as soon as you open the container you can smell it so trying to completely avoid taste and smell seems like an exercise in futility.

    By the way, Enig's book is titled Eat Fat, Lose Fat.

    You can download a free PDF of Eat Fat and Grow Slim, a book by Richard Mackarness written in 1960. It is a low carb/high fat book.
    You're right. I have both of them and got the titles backwards. Thanks for catching that.

    I think swallowing mac nuts without tasting them would be a massive waste of a very yummy and expensive substance.

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