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  1. #31
    Owly's Avatar
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    Not at all. Any time someone suggests rounding people up and forcing them into camps, even "for their own good", the world's history of hatred, human rights violations, and even genocide becomes relevant.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Completely irrelevant!
    Completely clueless.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodorchid View Post
    now you're just trying to impress me

    it's working
    They done learned me good in school.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owly View Post
    Not at all. Any time someone suggests rounding people up and forcing them into camps, even "for their own good", the world's history of hatred, human rights violations, and even genocide becomes relevant.
    So you are not interesting in discussing the physiological and psychological outcome of a though-experiment without taking the ethical discussion first whether it is actually a right thing to do in real life? I have no plan to put obese persons into concentration camps at all, please read what I have said above…

  5. #35
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    Oh, so you want us to just *imagine* putting fat people into concentration camps.

    Well, that makes it totally acceptable and in no way offensive or harmful in any way, because just imagining persecuting people is totes okay.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owly View Post
    Oh, so you want us to just *imagine* putting fat people into concentration camps.

    Well, that makes it totally acceptable and in no way offensive or harmful in any way, because just imagining persecuting people is totes okay.
    And as I also said above, we could assume that the candidates consented voluntarily, or like in a reality show, because what you are arguing against is far beyond the point. But never mind, I must have stepped on a few sore toes here, so I am out - troll on - the thread is all yours...

  7. #37
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    Yawn. If you wanted to discuss what starvation does to morbidly obese individuals you could've skipped the concentration camp shtick. You didn't really need a "thought experiment" to explore physiological or psychological outcomes. You only need your "thought experiment" if you are leading to a "why not?" type question.

    Here's how thought experiment are used:

    Imagine you have a rail road track with a switch that can divert trains onto two sets of rails. The switch is positioned to have the train roll onto track A. You can pull a lever and an oncoming train will instead roll onto track B. On track A there is a car with 5 people in it, stuck, and you cannot get them out. On track B there is one person. A train is approaching the switch right now. If you do nothing, 5 people will die. If you throw the switch, only one person dies. What do you do? What?

    If you answer ”do nothing": You inhuman scum. Are you really going to let five people die? How could you possibly justify that. Are you a psychopath? Do you torture small animals too? What would you tell the families of those five people? You are sick.

    If you answer "flip the switch": today we are in exactly that situation with organ transplants. Five people will die, today, for lack of suitable transplant organs. We could save those five lives by identifying a suitable donor, killing them, and taking their organs to save those lives. You agree this killing would be justified because you said you would kill one to save five in the train track thought experiment. Killing one to save five is obviously the right thing to do. Work with us to change the laws to allow common medical need to triumph over obsolete concepts of individualism. Together we can make a difference.

    That's how you do thought experiments.
    Last edited by Him; 12-26-2012 at 08:24 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    And as I also said above, we could assume that the candidates consented voluntarily, or like in a reality show, because what you are arguing against is far beyond the point. But never mind, I must have stepped on a few sore toes here, so I am out - troll on - the thread is all yours...
    Hey, gorbag. I don't think I have trolled anything in my life, but I really feel compelled to write a last thing...

    I do get your thought experiment because I have had these kinds of wonderings myself in my younger decades, exactly with the morbidly obese, and back then really thought it could theoretically be done "for their own good".

    Now I am a bit wiser, hopefully, and I see that these kinds of actions never, ever, ever end up well where they appear in the real world.

    And if you dwell on this too long, you are forging new trails in your own head that will only lead you, and others, down destructive paths. It is like I tell my children - for it to happen in the real world, first you have to be able to imagine it. So I think that, in essence, I am advising you not to dwell on this much longer, even in private.

    I have a special-needs daughter, and lots of folks would like to do lots of things "for their own good" in her world, and even though you said bupkis about the disabled-and-retarded, in some ways it is the same thing - you would deny their autonomy.

    Yeah, folks do lots of stupid shit with their freedom and autonomy, but the underlying beauty and wisdom is simply that they have it, and it never is apparent how wise and beautiful autonomy and freedom are until somebody else gets it into their head to deny you yours - for your own good, you know... And it begins with someone thinking "what if..."

  9. #39
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    I'm just wondering why you'd put a bunch of obese people on a really low calorie diet anyway? Why not just feed them a healthy primal diet with a reasonable number of calories and give them an opportunity for some healthy primal movement! (Not that I advocate rounding people up into a "camp"... but that being said, I think a lot of overweight people wouldn't mind being somewhere nice where all their food was provided and they were able to do some comfortable exercise ).

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    That's pretty serious, so we have to put some guards inside the camp as well, if that's the case! Do you really think it could go that far?
    Someone out of the group would want more food bad enough. Not necessarily everyone but one person will minimum. Look at plane crashes in remote areas, they always turn to eating the injured ones. Generally in shipwreck situations too... and those are probably people that like food considerably less than someone morbidly obese.
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