Thinking like a caveman, is it even possible? page 3

[JoPaleo]

Is it possible to even think like our ancestors? And is trying to do so actually detrimental to our health and well being?

Hey, good topic. When I first started paleo about 2 yrs ago, it was not detrimental to my health but it was to my well being. I CRAVED after 2 months of very strict paleo, I binged on EVERYTHING! It was horrible. It took a while to figure out what worked well for me physically and mentally. I'm good now. I'm 80/20.

But nowadays we have all kinds of crap available whenever we'd like, so for some of us it's hard to say no. And when we do say no, those cravings are intensified. Back in the day, the cavemen didn't have that, so they had no choice but to restrict.

[Dr. Bork Bork]

That's what you took away from that post? What is the paleo approach to eating? No one has a concise answer. The basic premise which people take away is clearly flawed, so maybe that's the answer to your question.

I always thought it was avoid grains and processed foods, opt for natural sugars over all others (fruit instead of faileo baked goods), and get some excercise & sunshine. Primal adds "would you like some grass fed dairy with that?"

when you get in your mind that no food is forbidden or off limits, it no longer becomes a craving or temptation. (or at least extremely infrequently)

[Derpamix]

I always thought it was avoid grains and processed foods, opt for natural sugars over all others (fruit instead of faileo baked goods), and get some excercise & sunshine. Primal adds "would you like some grass fed dairy with that?"

when you get in your mind that no food is forbidden or off limits, it no longer becomes a craving or temptation. (or at least extremely infrequently)

I agree with not restricting any one macronutrient. I don't eat grains frequently, but don't share the opinion they're as harmful as said they are.

Second part is my opinion to a T

[Him]

Only because it makes you feel good. Eventually the novelty of all foods wears off. I don't crave anything, which I consider to be at a healthy relationship with food. I don't deny myself whatever odd craving I have, but I eat depending on how I feel. The novelty of all food eventually wears off and you find yourself naturally gravitating towards more nutritionally dense foods 9/10 times.

This is clearly false for a lot of people. I don't question whether it is true for you, but there are MANY people who fall into very narrow food habits. Those people will eat the same food over and over and over. If those habits are bad it's a disaster.

I suspect that in nature such narrowness is survival positive to the extent required for evolution. Remember that evolution of genetic traits is driven by ability to bring viable offspring into existence. If you are in an environment with few good food choices and a lot of hazards, being a picky and narrow eater will accomplish that, though longevity beyond breeding age, optimal health, etc. may all suffer. That's why single bad food experiences will cause a lot of people to avoid specific foods. I know people who say things like, "I had bad shrimp once so I no longer eat shrimp". It's also why some people have the ability to hold to a "safe" diet despite repetitiveness that what would cause me unbearable boredom/desire for variety. I know adults who will not, without major external force applied, try new foods...I counted it a major victory to get one of my friends to try Chicken Curry. I only had to work on him for about 5 years to get him to do it... and now (10 years later) the only thing he ever orders at Thai restaurants is Chicken Curry. He won't try any other Thai food now because he doesn't trust it and he has a refuge - he knows Chicken Curry will probably be survivable. At the same time, he went to the Thai restaurant where I introduced him to Chicken Curry so often that the owners eventually knew him by name and didn't even ask him what he wanted...they knew he was going to order Chicken Curry. For him, there is no value in novelty of food and what he does value doesn't wear off, so he never gravitates to other foods. He's also the adult who, if you take him to a buffet restaurant, will take some mac-n-cheeze and not much else.

[Neckhammer]

Well, I think Zach may have a point of sorts. I think its a bit backwards though. The reason someone may stress is not due to restriction on this WOE so much as what our societal conditioning has produced. We have been inundated with false realities from the time of birth. Commercialism of cereals, sugar, and the eat 6 meals a day dogma have been literally burnt into our psyche quite to the contrary of our natural and genetic tendencies.

My kids never asked for any of these foods (cereals, cookies ect.) until they began seeing them in commercials. Even seeing other people eating them didn't elicit the results that commercialism did.

So yes, you do have to de-hypnotize yourself. You have to be able to look at food and see it for what it is. Is it food or isn't it? Once you start to recognize food again its all quite easy. Psychologically you stop associating food with that garbage they sell in a box on the supermarket shelves with no expiration date. At that point you actually increase your options rather than limit them.

[Derpamix]

This is clearly false for a lot of people. I don't question whether it is true for you, but there are MANY people who fall into very narrow food habits. Those people will eat the same food over and over and over. If those habits are bad it's a disaster.

I suspect that in nature such narrowness is survival positive to the extent required for evolution. Remember that evolution of genetic traits is driven by ability to bring viable offspring into existence. If you are in an environment with few good food choices and a lot of hazards, being a picky and narrow eater will accomplish that, though longevity beyond breeding age, optimal health, etc. may all suffer. That's why single bad food experiences will cause a lot of people to avoid specific foods. I know people who say things like, "I had bad shrimp once so I no longer eat shrimp". It's also why some people have the ability to hold to a "safe" diet despite repetitiveness that what would cause me unbearable boredom/desire for variety. I know adults who will not, without major external force applied, try new foods...I counted it a major victory to get one of my friends to try Chicken Curry. I only had to work on him for about 5 years to get him to do it... and now (10 years later) the only thing he ever orders at Thai restaurants is Chicken Curry. He won't try any other Thai food now because he doesn't trust it and he has a refuge - he knows Chicken Curry will probably be survivable. At the same time, he went to the Thai restaurant where I introduced him to Chicken Curry so often that the owners eventually knew him by name and didn't even ask him what he wanted...they knew he was going to order Chicken Curry. For him, there is no value in novelty of food and what he does value doesn't wear off, so he never gravitates to other foods. He's also the adult who, if you take him to a buffet restaurant, will take some mac-n-cheeze and not much else.

I'm talking about one's unhealthy obsession to deny themselves a particular food craving.

There are polar extremes to everything. The people who neglect their health, and those who take it to extremes. My post was aimed at the extreme ones, who obviously care enough about their health to research ways to improve it, but at the same time read too far into things and make it an obsession.

Too many people arrive at this point, from being like your aforementioned friend there.

[Him]

I'm talking about one's unhealthy obsession to deny themselves a particular food craving.

There are polar extremes to everything. The people who neglect their health, and those who take it to extremes. My post was aimed at the extreme ones, who obviously care enough about their health to research ways to improve it, but at the same time read too far into things and make it an obsession.

Too many people arrive at this point, from being like your aforementioned friend there.

I don't think you have the nuances down. I think you (like me) enjoy diversity and are probably pretty happy to eat whatever, but get bored after awhile and naturally tend to a diverse diet, so you (unlike me) assume that that's the natural behavior of humans in general. I think it's the natural behavior of some humans. Humans like me. But I think there are other people, equally human, who follow completely different low-level drives.

The friend I mentioned above once explained his perception of the world to me this way, "Some things cause enjoyment. Most cause anti-enjoyment. (Him: his term) The misery of anti-enjoyment is 10 times worse than enjoyment can possibly be, so my actions are all based around avoiding anti-enjoyment." His body was either so different from mine, or he was so out of touch with it, that food cravings simply didn't enter into his behavior. Nor did health concerns. You could tell him he was 100% gluten intolerant and he'd still eat his mac-n-cheeze because that's a known low anti-enjoyment food. That world perception is so totally alien to me that I can't really imagine what he's talking about. For me the worst that usually happens is I try something, and it doesn't taste right, and I don't eat any more. That small unpleasantness is so minor that it doesn't stop me from trying foods, even many foods I have disliked in the past. I've experienced food poisoning from muscles left too long - seriously sick - and I still enjoy muscles. So I'm wired differently than my friend.

On a similar note I recently figured out that I have strong genes for tasting cyanoglucosides ... there is food that I find spit-it-out (though not never-try-it-again) awful, that others apparently perceive totally differently. It's weird.

[Paleobird]

I consume a lot of oj and milk simply because they require no prep work and contain all the nutrition I really need. Raw milk is a complete nutritional package that could fully sustain me assuming I never get bored of it, which I don't, really, because I know other options are out there. I eat tons of fruit, some starch like potatoes and white rice as well.

Sounds very much like my diet before I got cancer.

[Forgotmylastusername]

Craving and then eating to your cravings is pretty unnatural and disordered.

Not really. I "crave' both sweet and savory foods but I wouldn't want to live on just one and reject the other. You see people on raw food forums claiming they are defected because they no longer feel like eating fruit for weeks in a row and start craving savory cooked foods. Then you have people on this forum thinking there's something wrong with them for craving sweets after trying to live on nothing but savory meat/fat and vegetables. You can't help but shake your head because you know both groups are doomed to fail for obvious reasons. I started craving bananas of all things when I spent a while in VLC. I never even like bananas and I don't care much for them at all now I'm back on a more balanced diet. Unnecessary dietary restrictions and denial can do weird things to people.

[Zach]

Sounds very much like my diet before I got cancer.

You are not correlating that with cancer are you?