09-30-2013, 05:56 PM
Nope, we are completely on opposite sides of this fence! But in this case, good fences make good neighbors... I've had the pleasure of exchanging ideas with Norm quite frequently the last few months--he is looking to exclude almost completely any food source which is fermented by gut bacteria of all kinds, so as to prevent out-of-place gut bacteria (SIBO) from fermenting and causing back-pressure. This is his novel approach to helping people with SIBO, GERD, IBS, etc... and he is helping lots of people with it. He even gave a talk at the Ancestral Health Society this year.
Originally Posted by Paleophil
Norm uses the Glycemic Index as the basis for his 'OK' foodlists. Many of the foods on it can be tweaked to build up the RS, but he wants the complete opposite for his patients. I agree with all your asterisks and hashtags above.
09-30-2013, 06:06 PM
Even if so, in my experience most folks seek to maximize the yumminess of whatever diet they try. So if they like stir-fried rice, they will eat that unless the diet expressly forbids it. Granted, I'll bet buckwheat groats aren't particularly yummy, so there probably won't be many folks eating that.
09-30-2013, 06:20 PM
I agree with that! I was really surprised to learn that RS3 actually increases on heating where RS2 almost completely disappears. If you ever read any of the old 'potato diet' threads, we were advocating pre-cooking all the potatoes, then dry-frying them for a quick meal. Unknowingly, this is the best way to maximize RS in a potato, and way better than cold potatoes.
Originally Posted by Paleophil
So, that being said, Norm would advise against this way of preparing potatoes, opting for the prep that has the highest GI, probably boiled and eaten hot.
The fact that Norm can treat SIBO with complete avoidance of RS and low GI foods actually gives a lot of credibility for increasing these foods for people with relatively normal guts.
10-01-2013, 07:20 AM
: ( my mistake
Thanks for correcting me. I'm not a buckwheat eater and didn't pay it much mind, except to include pancakes made from it in my tables.
Originally Posted by FrenchFry
10-01-2013, 07:25 AM
Good summary Otzi, just one correction. Fast Tract Digestion advocates "limiting" not "excluding" foods that drive fermentation in cases of SIBO. That would include carrots, rhubarb and the other foods mentioned in a previous post.
10-01-2013, 07:44 AM
Thanks for responding PaleoPhil, I agree with you. We have much more to learn. I am enjoying this conversation and already learned a couple of things that will help with the book I am currently working on. I have been digging into the the physical testing methods for carbs, fiber and RS that support nutritional food labeling requirements. These values are used in the Fast Tract Diet for calculating fermentation potential.
You're right when you say "some of your and Otzi's numbers and assessments don't seem to be matching up". I am interested in the disagreement between glycemic index-based calculations and measurements from physical test methods. One reason could be the different AOAC methods in use for determining dietary fiber. Some methods report RS as a component of DF while others exclude it. And, as Otzi has pointed out in the past, RS is not fixed as other food components are and changes based on several factors - most importantly, cooking and cooling.
I was also interested in your statement that frying rice increases RS. I have wondered about that and do have at least one fried rice recipe in some of my books. Might have to rethink this - One problem, it's delicious!
10-01-2013, 10:11 AM
To maximize RS in rice, you need to choose one with a low GI (Uncle Ben's, etc...), cooked in a standard method, but use a bit less water than the instructions call for, then cool the rice to at least 40 deg, or even freeze, for at least 24 hours. Then reheat the rice by quickly stirring in very hot oil.
Originally Posted by normjr1
I think you can easily reverse a few key steps and make delicious fried rice that would have virtually no RS. Cook high GI rice in a bit more water than called for and use it immediately in a stir-fry recipe being careful not to overheat it and don't eat leftovers.
Last edited by otzi; 10-01-2013 at 10:15 AM.
10-01-2013, 07:41 PM
Norm, Have any of your readers have reported problems from fried jasmine rice? If not, then why eliminate it? Like you said, RS doesn't appear to be as problematic for people with bowel disorders as other "fibers".
If you have any studies linking bowel problems (beyond flatulence) or klebsiella to RS, please let me know.
I hope you'll have time to thoroughly investigate resistant starch before publication of your book. So far the claims I've seen that RS is connected to aggravation of bowel disorders or pathogenic klebsiella have not panned out when I looked for supporting evidence. The studies with links to bowel disorders I've seen cited turned out to either lump RS in with other "fiber," making it impossible to determine which of the types of fiber was a problem, or didn't even mention RS. I searched for evidence supporting a link to klebsiella after Petro of the Hyperlipid blog mentioned that (but uncharacteristically didn't cite any sources). Only one article I found listed a study linking RS to klebsiella, and only an abstract was available. The abstract indicated the opposite--that RS helps fight klebsiella, not promote it.
I have begged skeptics, critics and concerned citizens multiple times (in this forum and at the Free the Animal blog) to please provide any substantive evidence of harm from RS, either studies or personal experience (preferably verified by something objective or third-party, like a blood glucose monitor or physician diagnosis, but I'll take almost anything at this point) and haven't seen anything that stood up under scrutiny. I'd like to know, because even though I haven't had any negatives in the short-term from it, I'd like to know if there are any long-term risks and at what point does it become too much of a good thing. Things tend to go silent after I ask for negative evidence. Pklopp did ask a question I had raised about how much of RS is too much and what the sweet spot is (is it 5g/day or more?) and then Otzi enlightened us on that topic and that's been about it. I'm particularly interested in input from folks like you whose writiings are substantive and fact-based. Thanks.
Last edited by Paleophil; 10-02-2013 at 07:01 AM.
10-11-2013, 07:17 AM
Been eating cold (properly prepared, black) beans (1/2 cup) every morning with breakfast and taking Glucomannan 2x a day (about an hour after breakfast and lunch). I go through the days without feeling ravenous and obsessed with food, and have much lighter suppers (really snacks) + sleep closer to 8 than 7 hours. My weight is not going up, even though I was barely doing anything beyond walking a little + eating fruit. I am not adding any other RS, as in the past cold potatoes and grains did not do much for me.
At the very least RS + other starches/fiber might be good at either blood sugar/hunger control. I am glad this thread cam up, because it finally made me stop quibbling and add beans back to my diet.
10-11-2013, 02:19 PM
I think that making beans 'bad' was a big mistake for paleo. It's easy to make a case against beans if you look at what's in raw beans or minimally prepared beans, but when beans are properly lacto-fermented, they become a sort of super-food. Great protein and carbs/fiber/resistant starch in good proportions.
Some things I learned recently about proper prep of beans, not sure if we discussed here earlier, but they should be soaked for a miniimum of 12 hours, preferably 24-48. More than 48 not needed. Put a TBS or so of salt in the water at the start, this will inhibit bad bacteria from growing until the lactobaccilus has a chance to get going. Don't rinse the water until the end. If you make a particularly good, bubbly batch--save a couple cups of the water in a jar in the fridge and use to get you next batch going.
The process of soaking beans is just like making sauerkraut or kefir, you are relying on natural lacto-bacteria found on the raw foods to ferment and make huge changes to the structure of the food, ie, breaking down fibers and converting nutrients/vitamins into readily available forms.