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  1. #281
    marc's Avatar
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    To echo the thoughts, yes... not all Carbs have the same purpose and properties. :P

    Potatoes are a pretty enjoyable Sedative with lots of benefits for Recovery and Maintenance.

    Enjoy Potatoes in all forms naturally, and they will reward you with great Sleep.

  2. #282
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    Otzi,
    It looks like Norm Robillard may unwittingly be another RS promoter. Despite his warnings for people with GI issues like SIBO to "Avoid resistant starch" (such as per the review of one of his books at http://www.cambridgenaturals.com/wp-...eview.2013.pdf and at Resistant Starch - Friend or Foe? | Digestive Health InstituteDigestive Health Institute), his book Fast Track Digestion-Heartburn (http://www.cambridgenaturals.com/wp-...eview.2013.pdf) reportedly recommends multiple foods that contain significant RS or the bacteria that feed on RS. For example, it reportedly recommends jasmine long grain rice, which is higher in RS than medium and short grain rice (Resistant starch content of rice varies with rice variety but not cooking method -- Stewart and Manglicmot 24 (1): 922.9 -- The FASEB Journal, http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/22/3/372.pdf), buckwheat that is high in RS (BUCKWHEAT MIRACLE FOOD), specifies Yukon gold potatoes that contain just as much RS as the more common Russet potato (Resistant starch content of potatoes varies significantly by preparation and service method), and recommends miso that contains RS-eating bacteria (What Probiotics Does Miso Contain? | LIVESTRONG.COM). Could his readers be benefitting because they are INCREASING their intake of RS and other prebiotics and RS-eating bacteria by eating jasmine rice, Yukon gold potatoes, buckwheat or miso, instead of decreasing them?

    Check out all the starches, prebiotics and probiotics in his alleged overall recommended diet from the above linked book review:

    MEAT & FISH – all
    LEGUMES – none
    SOUPS – miso, broth
    CRACKERS – rice cakes, crackers
    COOKIES – shortbread
    FLOUR – buckwheat (i.e., no bread)
    RICE – jasmine, Asian sticky
    POTATO – waxy, Yukon gold
    VEGETABLES – all leaves and stalks, no roots
    DAIRY – cream, yogurt, some cheeses: ricotta, cream cheese, brie,
    Gouda
    NUTS – almonds, cashews, walnuts
    FRUIT – stick with berries
    SUGAR, HONEY, etc. -- none
    I do wonder how accurate this list is, given that it says "LEGUMES - none" but lists miso. Do you know what his official recommended diet is?

    It's odd how each time I look into the claims of critics of RS, where they point me to turns out to support RS. I haven't seen anything like this since the "French paradox" in which scientists asked themselves why French people had low rates of heart disease *despite* their high intakes of saturated fats instead of wondering whether it was *because* of their high intakes.

    It's looking to me like Norm might be an easy convert to a positive RS message, given that he has apparently been promoting it all along without knowing it. All that's needed is your patented charm.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-29-2013 at 10:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Im not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

  3. #283
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    Hi Paleophil,
    I have no opinion on RS for anyone who is not suffering with a SIBO-related condition. For people with SIBO, I do recommend limiting (not eliminating) RS along with several other carbs that have what I call fermentation potential. I chose this term carefully. It means that undigested carbs have "potential" to be fermented by gut microbes. Where bacteria have been recovered from people with SIBO, RS competent species have been identified. For that reason, I think it's prudent to limit RS along with lactose, fructose, fiber and sugar alcohols to a total of approximately 40 g or less per day until symptoms are under control (compared to 150 grams / day in SAD).

    This approach seems pretty simple to me. It’s based on numerous studies referenced in my books demonstrating clear success treating SIBO-related illness by restricting various carbs including, in most cases, RS. These include low starch, low carb, elemental, low fiber (most total fiber test methods include RS), low fructose and the Fast Tract Diet.

    As for promoting RS unwittingly, let’s take a look at some of your claims. I see your reference indicating that jasmine rice has more RS than short grain rice via AOAC 2002.02, but steamed short grain rice has almost no RS as it lacks the ability to produce amylose starch. Also, total fiber (from what I can tell, the test method for total fiber includes RS) reported in the nutritional facts on the package label give a low value for jasmine rice (<1 g/5 ounce serving). Most importantly, in vivo, the glycemic index of jasmine rice is reported to be 109! To me that indicates that jasmine rice presents very few fermentable carbohydrates (RS or otherwise) to the small intestine because they are broken down and absorbed so quickly. RS in Uncle Bens and basmati rice is much higher.

    I calculate a relatively low FP for buckwheat pancakes (not buckwheat itself or in other foods) based on a glycemic index of 102 and a total fiber value of 5 g. The FP is therefore 5 g. It is what it is. I am just doing the FP calculation and reporting the result. I am not telling people to eat buckwheat. In fact, I advise significant caution with all wheat based foods, because of RS but also possible gluten sensitivity. I’m not sure I see where miso fits into this discussion. The strategy I recommend limits fermentable carbs not residual microbes in fermented foods.

    I don’t think you need to worry about “converting me” so much as convincing people that have IBS, GERD or other SIBO illnesses that RS won’t make their condition worse. Based on the success of the diets I mentioned above, I’m not overly optimistic. But it’s possible that it won’t, particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some people’s gut microbes don’t process RS at all so clearly it’s not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types. RS could end up in the number two slot, but more work is needed to show it’s clearly not a threat for SIBO.

    Norm

  4. #284
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    Hi Norm, Thanks for the explanation. You're right that "critic" was not an accurate word to describe your writings and and your cautionary remarks are understandable. I'm sorry for being too loose with my wording. I've raised questions about RS myself. Your work actually appears to fit better than I first expected with Otzi's positive findings about RS, if I understand it correctly so far, so that you might even be much on the same page.

    It's true that in the study, while jasmine rice contained more RS than short grain or medium grain rice, none of the rice contained that much RS. However, none of them used stir-frying, which is a traditional Asian style of cooking and I think Otzi found it to produce the most RS, so if that were used, then I think the RS in jasmine rice would be significant. Maybe some of your readers stir fry their jasmine rice?

    What would you say is the study that most clearly shows that SIBO-related illness is helped by specifically restricting RS?

    The book reviewer didn't specify buckwheat pancakes, so I wasn't aware of that detail, sorry. More traditional processing methods like buckwheat groats are reportedly higher in RS content, though I doubt many of your readers eat in that way, so it is difficult to know how much RS they are getting from buckwheat.

    Also, as you pointed out before, some of your and Otzi's numbers and assessments don't seem to be matching up, and there are differences between some of the research reports, so it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. It's a relatively new and exciting area of scientific inquiry, so it will take time to figure it all out, and maybe I just got overexcited to find foods in a list of foods connected to you that I've seen in RS food lists. Maybe Otzi can shed further light on it.

    I've seen claims from credible sources that buckwheat is quite distinct and different from wheat and gluten-free. I'm gluten sensitive myself, but I never bothered to test the claim, as I don't seem to tolerate any grains or grainlike seeds well and one has to seek out buckwheat to eat it as it's not a common food. I haven't tried Otzi's recommended forms much recently, though and he has almost persuaded me to try some of them again.

    Miso is interesting, glad you asked. It's a probiotic and during the fermentation process is paired with RS-rich foods, thus feeding the bacteria that come with the miso with RS. In other words, when someone eats miso, they are ingesting RS-eating bacteria. Pairing miso with foods that contain significant amounts of RS looks like a winning combination, so if your diet does contain enough RS to feed those bacteria, then that seems like an excellent combination.

    "particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some peoples gut microbes dont process RS at all so clearly its not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types."

    Yes! This does seem to be part of the key and would explain why the diet listed in the review would be especially helpful to GI sufferers--reducing most of the other fibers while keeping some of the most beneficial fiber (RS) and thus tilting the net balance more toward RS.

    I look forward to more discussion of the topic by you and Otzi.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Im not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

  5. #285
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    Mmm, not exactly on topic but buckwheat has NOTHING TO DO with wheat ... poor name maybe, but buckwheat is a plant related to rhubarb, the seeds of which are edible by humans when properly processed (soaked, etc).

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Also, I think maybe the Inuit were getting a bit of RS, too! People like to think they were eating nothing but whale blubber and seal oil, but in reality, there was all kinds of plant food. From the University of Fairbanks, Alaska on Eskimo food:
    You need to take a step back and listen to yourself. You are trying to justify eating resistant starches by making reference to Inuit ( as they call themselves, as opposed to the derogatory "eater of whale blubber" which is what Eskimo means ) diets that include COOKED starches. Why on earth would the silly Inuit choose to cook their starches? Maybe because that makes them much more nutritious in that it severs the glucoside bonds for which we lack the appropriate enzymes to metabolize. Or in other words, the very purpose of cooking is to make resistant starches non-resistant!

    I have never argued against starches per se, but I have always advocated a healthy bit of caution when it comes to unthinkingly jumping on the RS bandwagon. Did the Inuit ever eat cooked starches that had cooled in the interim? Probably, but you would have to establish that this was their preferred way of eating them to even remotely begin to formulate a convincing argument. Good luck with that ( although I expect you will simply ignore this and assume that they did and go on your merry way )

    Your confirmation bias is of monumental proportions!

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  7. #287
    Leida's Avatar
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    I've seen claims from credible sources that buckwheat is quite distinct and different from wheat and gluten-free. I'm gluten sensitive myself, but I never bothered to test the claim, as I don't seem to tolerate any grains or grainlike seeds well and one has to seek out buckwheat to eat it as it's not a common food. I haven't tried Otzi's recommended forms much recently, though and he has almost persuaded me to try some of them again.
    Yeah, buckwheat has nothing to do with cereals, let alone wheat. It is a seed. I grew up eating tons of it, and I actually think removing it from my diet was not a great idea, as it is rich in magnesium.

    Otherwise, Norman's diet is not something I am willing to try, since eliminating radishes, rutabagas, beets and carrots... makes no sense to me, and never will.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by normjr1 View Post
    I don’t think you need to worry about “converting me” so much as convincing people that have IBS, GERD or other SIBO illnesses that RS won’t make their condition worse. Based on the success of the diets I mentioned above, I’m not overly optimistic. But it’s possible that it won’t, particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some people’s gut microbes don’t process RS at all so clearly it’s not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types. RS could end up in the number two slot, but more work is needed to show it’s clearly not a threat for SIBO. Norm
    Alright! We got Norm involved. I love what you are doing for people, Norm. I hope that some of our info on RS is helping you with what you are doing. We are clearly on opposite sides of the fence, but that's a good thing in this case. I know very well the problems caused by SIBO and antibiotics and PPIs, and can see exactly why avoiding low GI/high RS foods would be best.

    @Paleophil - I am going to try to get the full-text of the study you linked, I think there is something funny going on with it--I've seen that abstract before but didn't pay any attention as it doesn't jive with what I know about RS in rice from other studies. I think cooking method is the biggest factor in RS in rice. Even short-grain, sticky rice with a GI of over 100 can develop a fair bit of RS when cooled and reheated--not as much as long-grain, but still more than just plain cooked rice.

    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    You need to take a step back and listen to yourself. You are trying to justify eating resistant starches by making reference to Inuit...Your confirmation bias is of monumental proportions! -PK
    You are really scraping the bottom now!

  9. #289
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    @PaleoPhil - OK, I see you did include the full text link to the Hawaiian study on RS in rice. What I see, is that long-grain rice has the highest RS (2.55%) when cooked and cooled. All the other rices looked at (Jasmine, Med, and Short Grain) have significantly less than 1%. If they'd have taken this a few steps further, they'd have been surprised!

    I think the values they came up with for fresh cooked rice are accurate, which is why I never liked rice as an RS source. Then I saw this thesis:

    In Chapter 2 on page 38, they get into different food preps effect on RS. They found that freshly cooked rice had less than 1% RS, baked rice had 3.4% RS for short-grain and 13% for long-grain, and fried rice made from chilled rice has 12-16% regardless of variety.

    I can't cut and paste from the thesis, you'll have to look on your own. Table 2.5 at the very end has the data all tabulated.
    Last edited by otzi; 09-30-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  10. #290
    Paleophil's Avatar
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    Otzi, I don't think that you and Norm are on opposite sides of the fence, if the list of foods allegedly from Fast Tract Digestion - Heartburn is relatively accurate, and he wrote:

    "particularly if you limit the other four difficult to digest-but-fermentable carbs I mentioned above. Some peoples gut microbes dont process RS at all so clearly its not as fermentable as some of the simpler carbs like fructose, lactose, and the more fermentable fiber types. It seems to behave a bit like cellulose fiber which appears to be the least threatening of 8 fiber types."
    Jasmine is an aromatic variety of long grain rice and, according to the study, when oven-baked (a dry form of cooking) is actually higher in RS than other long grain varieties. I suspect that will be found to be the case with stir-fried jasmine rice too, which is also a fairly dry cooking method.

    The list of foods can be made decently high in RS, with some probiotics:

    MEAT & FISH all
    SOUPS miso#, broth
    CRACKERS rice cakes*, crackers*
    COOKIES shortbread
    FLOUR buckwheat groats** and pancakes*
    RICE stir-fried jasmine**, cold Asian sticky*
    POTATO cold waxy*, cold Yukon gold*
    VEGETABLES all leaves and stalks, no roots
    DAIRY cream, sour cream#, yogurt#, some cheeses: ricotta, cream cheese, brie, Gouda
    NUTS almonds, cashews, walnuts
    FRUIT berries
    # = probiotic food
    * = RS food, ** high RS food
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Im not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

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