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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    Ive found this thread quiet intereesting, due to having bowel and digestive issues, and definitley believe in probiotics and prebioitics.

    Today, i plan on having a banana mashed with some kefir and later on a cold sweet potato mashed with kefir, am i doing this 'RS' thing right? Cheers in advance.
    Sweet potatoes have almost no RS. Regular white potatoes, especially eaten cold have quite a bit. Here is a complete list of RS contents in foods for reference. Scroll through the list and find your food item, the range of RS found in different studies is given. For example, "Bananas" On page 4 you see Ripe Bananas, .3 - 6.2 and Unripe Bananas 4.7 - 34. The greener a banana, the more RS in it.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammies View Post
    I still can't get past the fact that all these sources of resistant starch seems so strange.
    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Here is a complete list of RS contents in foods for reference.
    After reading the fermentation chapter in Michael Pollan's Cooked I'm definitely open minded about prebiotics but I can't reconcile it with my trust in the palate as a guide to nutrients. It seems like RS level and pleasure level are inverted in every case.
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  3. #243
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    Organ meats are also widely regarded as healthy, yet I don't care much for the taste of them. Should I trust my palate and avoid them?

    Our palates appear to be influenced by which foods we are raised on. Eskimo elders say that a child should be given traditional foods before the age of seven, else they will never eat them. Both organs and raw wild potatoes (not to mention "high meats," which extremely few moderners are willing to even try) are reportedly regarded as exceptionally healthy traditional foods by Eskimo elders. Today, many Eskimo young people turn their noses up at traditional foods and instead embrace highly processed modern foods.

    Our ancestors didn't have supermarkets. Their daily food choices were influenced not just by their palates, but also by availability. Wild African roots and tubers were plentiful, available nearly year round, and there wasn't a lot of competition for them. Some other African primates, such as chimpanzees and baboons, reportedly do dig them up at times and eat them, but they are not as skilled as our ancestors were at digging them up and processing them with sticks and stones (the digging stick was one of the earliest human tools, and it's believed was ubiquitous in the ancient past) and there were more than enough to go around:

    Tubers as Fallback Foods and Their Impact on Hadza Hunter-Gatherers
    Frank W. Marlowe and Julia C. Berbesque
    http://www.bioanth.cam.ac.uk/fwm23/t..._21040_ftp.pdf

    "Even chimpanzees have been observed using sticks to dig shallow tubers (up to 250 mm or about 10 inches deep) at one savanna site (Hernandez- Aguilar et al., 2007). Although we have not observed it, some Hadza say baboons (Papio anubis) occasionally use sticks to dig for shallow tubers as well. Our ancestors could have for a very long time possessed a simple but effective digging stick for accessing deep tubers. ...
    Raw tubers were also a source of water for drinking and bathing, not just food. One woman in this video even says that the tuber they are demonstrating its use for bathing as well as drinking is also "very good for the skin":
    How to Find Water in the Kalahari Desert - Bushman Walk, Ghanzi - YouTube

    Is it any wonder that raw potato juice is regarded as therapeutic for the skin?

    Health Benefits and Cons of Solanum tuberosum
    Journal of Medicinal Plants Studies
    http://plantsjournal.com/vol1Issue1/...jan_2013/3.pdf

    13 Best Benefits Of Potato Juice For Skin, Hair And Health
    http://www.stylecraze.com/articles/b...air-and-health

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/32...e-cholesterol/
    "Potatoes and potato juice have been used for thousands of years to treat ailments including easing digestive problems, healing burns, promoting healthier skin and healing ulcers."

    When presented with a choice between consuming raw tuber juice and dying of dehydration, I think most of our ancestors would have chosen the former. We are rarely confronted with harsh choices like this and most of us don't even have access to wild African tubers, so we tend to choose different foods than our ancestors consumed.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-21-2013 at 05:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Iím not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    Organ meats are also widely regarded as healthy, yet I don't care much for the taste of them. Should I trust my palate and avoid them?
    And I really, really, really like the taste of a cake-y, gooey, heavenly Twinkie. Should I just eat them? I never get tired of them.

    You are right PaleoPhil, I don't think our taste buds are to be trusted any more. We have been tricked since childhood to believe that 'super-tasty = super-good-for-you'. Campell's Soup is MMMMMMmmmm MMMMMMmmmmm good!, but have you read the ingredients?

    I do agree somewhat with Picklepete that RS rich foods are usually very low on the tasty ladder, but a few minor tweaks to one's diet can yield big differences in RS intake: Buy the greenest bananas on the shelf. Boil potatoes until they are just starting to get tender, not until they fall apart, eat some hot and eat leftovers cold. Use converted rice instead of regular rice, and eat lots of it cold. Eat dry-soaked-boiled beans a couple times a week. If you do smoothies, add a scoop of potato or tapioca starch now and then.

    I have found it very easy to make RS rich foods a staple and eat them every day.

  5. #245
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    Is the idea of the converted rice so that when you boil it you are boiling it a second time and thus getting more retrograde RS? Is any more costly than unconverted rice?

    The Hadza also agree that tubers are less tasty than honey (their favorite food--does that mean honey should be our primary food? ), meats, berries, and fruits, yet it is nonetheless a staple food category for them almost year-round.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Iím not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    Is the idea of the converted rice so that when you boil it you are boiling it a second time and thus getting more retrograde RS? Is any more costly than unconverted rice?

    The Hadza also agree that tubers are less tasty than honey (their favorite food--does that mean honey should be our primary food? ), meats, berries, and fruits, yet it is nonetheless a staple food category for them almost year-round.
    It seems converted rice, which is the exact same price as the others, cheaper than some, actually, contains way more RS3, retrograded RS than any other rice. It gets there by the process of converting it--they pressure cook it for a few minutes to loosen the hull and clean the rice, as opposed to just picking it and mechanically polishing it to remove the hull.

    It seems any time a starchy RS rich food is pressure cooked and cooled, it becomes high in RS3, which remains after reheating to a greater extent than RS2 like found in potato starch.

    The GI of 39 seen in converted rice is proof of it's high RS content, in my opinion.

  7. #247
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    Of course the palate is no longer a guide once Kraft/Nabisco's chemists get their hands on it but a general theme in cooking is "external digestion" increasing nutrient availability and hence flavor.

    Btw I wonder if "white yam" on the list refers to nagaimo? Those are edible raw.
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  8. #248
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    Interesting, Otzi, thanks. You're a wealth of knowledge.

    It's increasingly looking like fermentation is the healthiest form of external digestion (see Seth Robert's blog for oodles of info on this). Interestingly, fermentation increases the prebiotic fiber content of foods, including resistant starch, as Otzi has reported, not just the bacteria.

    Humans and pre-humans consumed raw African underground storage organs for millions of years before the advent of cooking, so it's not at all surprising that many studies would find that raw RS-rich foods provide health benefits. Our ancestors evolved while eating them.

    Now that Mark Sisson has acknowledged the role of RS-rich foods in his version of the primal template (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514.html), I suspect we will gradually see more open-mindedness about this, though most moderners will of course not be eager to embrace it.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-21-2013 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Iím not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

  9. #249
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    So I have been following this thread from the get-go, and have been really enjoying the banter back and forth. I've also been following the RS articles/comments over at Free the Animal, where I've found some good information.

    I was wondering if any of you have come across this product:
    Our Science | Generation UCAN ģ

    They call it "Superstarch" and it's derived from corn. They tout it doesn't cause insulin spikes, is slow digesting because it bypasses the stomach, and provides a steady stream of energy over a few hours.

    It sounds as though it shares a lot of the properties of resistant starch. Do you guys have any thoughts on this? What is the difference between their SuperStarch, and plain old potato starch, besides it coming from corn?

  10. #250
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    Yes, Otzi has discussed Superstarch extensively. It's logical that it would contain RS, though the makers and marketers of it have not been very forthcoming about it. Maybe because unmodified potato starch is cheaper and contains more RS.

    --------

    I've noticed some interesting connections that seem to be more than just coincidental:

    Zinc and magnesium deficiencies can cause insulin resistance, even in non-diabetic patients:
    Zinc Supplementation.
    Contribution of zinc deficiency to insul... [Biol Trace Elem Res. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
    Insulin resistance derived from zinc deficiency... [Exp Ther Med. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
    Magnesium deficiency is associated with insuli... [Diabetes Care. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

    RS fermentation by gut microbiota increases mineral (such as zinc, magnesium, calcium, iron, ...) bioavailability by lowering the cecal pH:
    Insulin resistance derived from zinc deficiency... [Exp Ther Med. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
    Class 2 Resistant Starches Lower Plasma and Liver Lipids and Improve Mineral Retention in Rats
    Whole Health Source: Magnesium and Insulin Sensitivity

    Inulin-type fructans (inulin, oligofructose, fructooligosaccharides) also lower cecal pH in lab animals:
    Piglets - Cecal Infusion of Butyrate Increases Intestinal Cell Proliferation in Piglets
    Rats - Mechanisms underlying the effects of inulin-type fructa... [Bone. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

    Inulin did not lower cecal pH in germ-free rats, suggesting the importance of gut bacteria in fermenting prebiotics to lower the cecal pH: books.google.com/books?isbn=0203504933

    About 30% of the solid matter in feces reportedly consists of dead bacteria:
    feces (biology) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

    Fecal volume anecdotally tends to diminish on LC and LC-"Paleo" diets, suggesting less gut bacteria:
    Where is all my poop? : keto
    You can survive on this only -- Lex Rooker's Pemmican Manual - Gold & Silver Forum

    Low carb and "Paleo" diets tend to reduce RS intake and are linked to physiological insulin resistance and this is often dismissed as "normal" by LCers and Paleo dieters:
    Need help with Insulin Resistance as a result of my Low Carb/VLC diet. Anything current? - Paleohacks
    Does Eating a Low Carb Diet Cause Insulin Resistance? | Mark's Daily Apple

    Some longer-term VLCers report symptoms associated with deficiencies in minerals such as magnesium and other nutrients and many report taking mineral supplements, such as Mg:

    Jimmy Moore's muscle cramps resolved with potassium supplements - LLVLC On YouTube: Supplements On Low-Carb (Episode 10) LLVLC On YouTube: Supplements On Low-Carb (Episode 10) - YouTube

    Health Correlator: Potassium deficiency in low carbohydrate dieting: High protein and fat alternatives that do not involve supplementation
    "It is often pointed out, at least anecdotally, that potassium deficiency is common among low carbohydrate dieters."

    Orthostatic hypotension - Archevore - Archevore Blog - Thoughts on Ketosis -*I

    Mg supplementation by LCers:

    Blogger: Whole Health Source - Post a Comment

    Should we all be taking magnesium supplements (as the Eades's argue)? - Paleohacks

    "Magnesium is just about our favorite supplement. In fact, if we just had one supplement to recommend, and no other, it would be magnesium. Take it at bedtime because it helps you sleep." Magnesium and inflammation Ľ The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.

    Increasingly it's looking like symbiotic bacteria and helminths make up for lack of important nutrients like Mg and vitamin C http://coolinginflammation.blogspot....s-and-gut.html during periods of scarcity (such as late winter and early spring, when diets tend to naturally be VLC and low in vitamin C).

    Physiological insulin resistance may be "normal" as in common on LC diets, but maybe it's not necessarily always optimal, especially in the longer term when chronic?
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-22-2013 at 06:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot View Post
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    Notes I may point to:
    1) WARNING: beware of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other Paleo/Primal prebiotics
    2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail. YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance. Iím not prescribing.
    3) It may aid discussion if neither of us tries to speak for the other

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