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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Is it good? Cooking all the moisture out of potatoes at high temps, as in roasting or deep frying, appears to preserve a lot of RS. That's why I figured this would be a good way to prepare cassava with higher RS. The worst way (in RS terms) to prepare a food is by boiling. Potato chips (US Style) are one of the highest RS foods most people will eat, too bad about the crappy oils usually involved.
    It tastes like a dry, almost flavorless cracker. Very simple, and will take on the taste of almost anything you put on it. The dominicans usually eat it with olive oil alongside their beef stews.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    Do you have a link to Petro's positive comments about RS? I couldn't find any. The closest I found was his comments on the potato diet.

    I also couldn't find where Fanatic Cook talked about diminishing returns from RS (Petro wrote: "Fanatic Cook's love of resistant starch and her puzzlement about diminishing returns. Gut bacteria control our metabolism pretty effectively when we eat fiber or resistant starch.") Do you know where that is?
    I meant Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes, not RS. Look at his series on 'Who's Fat is it?' and the follow-ups to that series.

    I'm not sure about the diminishing returns, but I assume it is in regards to more is not better. Many studies showed that 10-30g/day was a good amount, but 40-50g+ just caused bulkier stools and starch in feces.

  3. #193
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    Sorry Otzi, I tried to find where Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes and I don't see it here:

    Hyperlipid: Fiaf: Who's fat is it anyway? DECEMBER 10, 2007

    Nor in the follow-ups. Instead, I found that he doubled-down on his bet that prebiotics are not necessary and possibly harmful here:

    "these findings suggest that the gut microbiota contributes to mammalian adiposity by regulating more than one node within the metabolic network that controls bioenergetics. Manipulating microbial characteristics in ways that impact calorie harvest from a diet, and/or Fiaf expression, or Fiaf-mediated control of Pgc-1alpha, may represent new strategies for modifying host energy balance to promote health"

    I can certainly go with the first suggestion, but my own decision to use a high fat diet, however logical, may be different to what may be tried by the mainstream medics.

    Tinkering with Fiaf at the gut wall level MIGHT be safe, after all not eating for a day bumps the levels up. So perhaps here is a target for a slimming drug. But what will happen if you bump up a starvation hormone, with it's cascade of effects down stream which increase fat oxidation, yet continue to feed a diet based on glucose? I have a bad feeling about this. It is very suggestive of clofibrate, pioglitazone and rosiglitazone, none of which feature on my must-have list. You are well in to the realms of the law of Unintended Consequences with this approach.

    What about that last suggestion of tinkering with Pgc-1alpha? Just have a look at the stub in wikipedia to get some idea of what this co factor does.

    I'm not sure I would personally want to start tinkering with a massive metabolic control switch, many of the normal effects of which are still unknown, in the hope of improving human health.

    Unintended Consequences anyone?

    Eggs and butter for breakfast seems a much safer option.

    Peter

    http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...here-next.html
    and here:

    Jun 23, 2008 - The resistant starch is of little interest. I must eat some for the occasional windy days after potatoes. This is accidental, I've no intetion of feeding my gut bacteria more than I have to.

    Hyperlipid: Opioid pictures
    high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/06/opioid-pictures.html?
    Any clue where it might be?

    Peter made a good point about our gut bacteria being more interested in promoting their own health than ours. It's an open question as to how much they are symbiotic vs. parasitic. Given that they've been with us for eons, my guess is that the best ones are more beneficial than harmful up to a certain point, but Peter seems to view them as neutral at best and possibly harmful in the longer run. It is possible. For example, maybe they help us to thrive through reproductive years and somewhat beyond, but in later years become detrimental? I've seen that argument made re: helminthic worms.

    I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here because no one other than Peter is making decent arguments against RS and Peter is not actively discussing it, so I'm arguing against my own current approach to see if it stands up to scrutiny.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-10-2013 at 05:57 PM.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    Sorry Otzi, I tried to find where Peter reversed his stance on gut microbes and I don't see it here:
    I poked around a bit and found these references:

    2010
    Now, I'm no great enthusiast for pre- or pro-biotics, but I do eat a fair amount of cheese, soured cream and high fat yogurt. The last of those occasionally in large amounts. So eating real-food dairy accidentally includes plenty of germs. Germs to which we are well adapted. Gut bacteria are normal to humans and lactobacilli are amongst the first bacteria to colonise the gut of a healthy infant, presumably because its mother provides lactose (and pre-biotics too, hmmmm). For humans who are not genetically adapted to adult lactose intake, are we borrowing the gene for lactose tolerance from the microbiome in our gut? Is it possible to lose lactose tolerance if we lose lactobacilli during the major bacterial starve-out that LC probably produces?

    2007
    Both improved symptoms. As fiber is of no use to humans and it appears to feed the bacteria that cause IBS, including good old klebsiella, you have to wonder where the medical fascination with fiber comes from...

    We all know where fiber ends up, why suffer the gut problems it causes as it gets there?
    It seems he just mostly ignores any role gut flora plays in human health.

  5. #195
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    OK, so Peter identified a specific theoretical risk from eating "fiber" - IBS produced by klebsiella. I tried to find info on this and found claims that there are plenty of studies showing this, but didn't find any actual studies that make a clear direct connection between RS and klebsiella. This article The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn’s Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption pointed to this study as evidence of the klebsiella-RS link:

    71. B. Kleessen, G. Stoof, J. Proll, D. Schmiedl, J. Noack, and M. Blaut, “Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal microflora and short-chain fatty acids in rats,” Journal of Animal Science, vol. 75, no. 9, pp. 2453–2462, 1997. View at Scopus Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal ... [J Anim Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    but the study conclusion actually suggests the opposite, that "Stimulation of bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, and SCFA [via RS] may be useful for the suppression of pathogenic organisms in the colon."

    How odd. Have you found anything re: RS and klebsiella?

  6. #196
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    Sorry, folks, I have another question, what type of fiber is glucomannan (konjak root)? I take it daily for appetite suppression, normally two 575 mg pills. Is it resistant starch and is it enough?
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  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Sorry, folks, I have another question, what type of fiber is glucomannan (konjak root)? I take it daily for appetite suppression, normally two 575 mg pills. Is it resistant starch and is it enough?
    Glucomannan is a type of fiber known as glucomannan...

    It's a type of soluble, fermentable fiber, a good prebiotic, and found in the konjak root and a few other obscure places. I've looked at quite a few studies on it and results range from very effective for appetite control and cholesterol lowering to marginally effective.

    It does seem to have the best result in lowering triglycerides, though.

    The approx 1g per day you are taking is the normal dose in the studies. I would have to guess it's actions on lower trigs and whatever else it does is separate from the way RS does what it does. With RS, fairly large doses are needed because it's actions come from completely restructuring the intestines with beneficial microbes...1 gram has almost no effect, but 10-30g have huge effects.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    OK, so Peter identified a specific theoretical risk from eating "fiber" - IBS produced by klebsiella. I tried to find info on this and found claims that there are plenty of studies showing this, but didn't find any actual studies that make a clear direct connection between RS and klebsiella. This article The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn’s Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption pointed to this study as evidence of the klebsiella-RS link:

    71. B. Kleessen, G. Stoof, J. Proll, D. Schmiedl, J. Noack, and M. Blaut, “Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal microflora and short-chain fatty acids in rats,” Journal of Animal Science, vol. 75, no. 9, pp. 2453–2462, 1997. View at Scopus Feeding resistant starch affects fecal and cecal ... [J Anim Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    but the study conclusion actually suggests the opposite, that "Stimulation of bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, and SCFA [via RS] may be useful for the suppression of pathogenic organisms in the colon."

    How odd. Have you found anything re: RS and klebsiella?
    How funny, we must think exactly alike. I clicked on your first link, then went directly to reference number 71, and thought -- 'what the hell are they trying to say--this seems like proof RS is a good thing" Then I see you did the exact same thing...

    The only thing I can say, if you have Crohn's, AS, C-Diff, SIBO, or anything like that, it's probably because you spent a long time abusing your intestines. Once you have it, you are kind of hosed. The usual treatment is lots of powerful antibiotics. A guy's wife I work with was in the hospital for 3 weeks with C-Diff and almost died several years ago--she hasn't been right since, all kinds of auto-immune problems now, and round after round of antibiotics.

    RS is probably really bad to ingest if your gut is infected with large colonies of pathological bacteria, but to ensure a healthy gut and hopefully keep those bacteria at bay, RS is probably the best prebiotic there is.

  9. #199
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    I have noticed before that your writing jibes more with my own thinking than most people's.

    Petro is the best critic of RS I've seen so far, though I'm disappointed by his casual dismissal of RS without citing sources. Not as much of an effort as I expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    RS is probably really bad to ingest if your gut is infected with large colonies of pathological bacteria
    Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to a study that found against that assumption, as it seems this latest linked study does, based on the abstract.
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-12-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #200
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    The approx 1g per day you are taking is the normal dose in the studies. I would have to guess it's actions on lower trigs and whatever else it does is separate from the way RS does what it does. With RS, fairly large doses are needed because it's actions come from completely restructuring the intestines with beneficial microbes...1 gram has almost no effect, but 10-30g have huge effects.
    Gotcha, thank you. Glucomannan does decrease appetite for me (like maybe the only thing that does!). I will start eating beans, and see how it goes. It fits into my renewed blood sugar control efforts, so I think it should work for the best.
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