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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    Are you implying that anyone who includes some potatoes, potato starch, green plantains/bananas, true yams, or other foods containing RS in their diet and benefits from it is not eating a PB diet? If so, why?
    No, I'm implying, and said, that when the purpose of adding resistant starch to the diet is to add fiber, then it's not necessary in a PB diet. Greens and tubers provide plenty, especially greens. It may be necessary in a SAD diet as commonly eaten.

    However, previously there have been comments here that resistant starch helps with sleep. If it does, I would consider that a sufficient reason to add it.

    Thanks for the links, they were quite interesting. I've marked some.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Farting is bad when it is non-stop, foul-smelling, leaves skid marks, and hurts.
    I probably coulda figured that out without researching

    I am becoming slightly curious about this as a solution for digestive issues though. Are you familiar with the GAPS diet? I'm considering this as a stage beyond the first few stages of SCD for my son. Just working out whats what here. He basically still passes whole grapes and berries without digesting the skins at this point. RS may just cause him more issue. Then again he eats melon and homemade fries (just read your link on that not deactivating things... might have to make sure its cooked low).
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-18-2013 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Jammies - The plantain flour (AKA green banana flour) has to be ingested in it's raw, uncooked state. The only use I have found is cookie dough, which I love. If you use it in baking--no RS (or minimal, anyway).

    Paleophil - Everything I have read says that most of the toxic substances in a potato are found in the skin and any flesh that has turned green or contains sprouting eyes. I always recommend to wash, peel, and remove any discolored parts. I would never recommend eating much more than a few slices here and there, though.

    This article says that the toxic substances aren't removed with cooking and that frying actually concentrates the toxins!



    From my readings, eating raw or cooked really makes no difference, but what could make the most difference is not eating french fries and potato chips--or worse yet, fried potato skins!

    I think the same substances that are toxic in potatoes are also found in tomatoes and green peppers--both widely consumed raw.

    As to the banana RS content, from what I can tell, a super-green, still hard Cavendish banana is exactly the same as a plantain at the same stage. Taste-wise, I can testify they are the same! It does stand to reason that they would all be similar in their green stage...they are all cultivars of species known as Musa. Bright yellow bananas in a supermarket are more an engineering feat and a wonder of modern marketing--read up on how it's done and you may never want a bright yellow banana again! I've also heard that most unriped fruit, like apples and pears, contain RS but have yet to confirm this and don't intend to experiment.
    What's ingredients do you use for cookie dough? I have had 2 pounds of green banana flour in my kitchen for about a month but I couldn't think of anything to do with it that doesn't require cooking.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    What's ingredients do you use for cookie dough? I have had 2 pounds of green banana flour in my kitchen for about a month but I couldn't think of anything to do with it that doesn't require cooking.
    2 cups banana flour
    1 tsp salt
    1 cup (2 sticks) softened butter (!)
    1 tsp vanilla
    2 eggs
    Sweetener of choice to taste...I use molasses

    Mix all together, whip eggs and add last. Also add nuts, coconut, whatever.

    The 2 cups (32TBS) of plantain flour have approximately 160g RS (5g per TBS). If you divide the mixture into 32 equal size balls, you know the amount of RS you are eating.

    Don't eat it all at once!

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    2 cups banana flour
    1 tsp salt
    1 cup (2 sticks) softened butter (!)
    1 tsp vanilla
    2 eggs
    Sweetener of choice to taste...I use molasses

    Mix all together, whip eggs and add last. Also add nuts, coconut, whatever.

    The 2 cups (32TBS) of plantain flour have approximately 160g RS (5g per TBS). If you divide the mixture into 32 equal size balls, you know the amount of RS you are eating.

    Don't eat it all at once!
    Cool. I just made some an hour ago with coconut milk instead of butter and I used molasses and chopped dates for sweetener. I'm really surprised at how full I am. I only a small amount but now I don't even feel like dinner. This will be handy because I need something easy and filling to eat before work and I haven't really got time to prepare anything.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptocode View Post
    No, I'm implying, and said, that when the purpose of adding resistant starch to the diet is to add fiber, then it's not necessary in a PB diet. Greens and tubers provide plenty, especially greens. It may be necessary in a SAD diet as commonly eaten.

    However, previously there have been comments here that resistant starch helps with sleep. If it does, I would consider that a sufficient reason to add it.

    Thanks for the links, they were quite interesting. I've marked some.
    Your mileage may vary on sleep improvements with more RS in the diet, but it makes sense--gut microbes produce almost all of the serotonin in your body and proper levels lead to better sleep.

    As to RS being 'just fiber' and Primal Blueprint's Big Ass Salad being enough fiber...that is a point of contention with me. RS has some very specific end-products that aren't associated with most other fibers. RS is preferred food for butyrate producing microbes and when those microbes are allowed to flourish, they cause definite changes to the cells lining the colon (colonocytes) which improves overall gut health, vitamin and mineral uptake, and many other benefits associated with a healthy gut.

    The 'fiber' you get with a Big Ass Salad is minimal. Most of the fiber found on a salad bar or produce aisle is non-fermentable by gut microbes, and much of the fermentable fiber is fermented equally throughout the gut by all it's inhabitants.

    Fiber that ends up mainly as butyrate includes pectins, gums, and resistant starches. The other fibers like cellulose, fructans, inulin, and the whole FODMAP lineup provide stool bulking properties and some prebiotic action--but don't have the targeted butyrate production that RS has.

    The best 'fiber' consumption one could strive for is a mix of all the fiber types, with RS being a majority. Aiming for 40g of fiber per day with RS being at least 50% of that is a good start.

  7. #137
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    PaleoPhil asked: What do folks make of this suggesting that the type 1 physically inaccessible RS found in nuts, seeds, grains and legumes show poorer study results than the type 2 RS in potatoes and plantains...
    Type 1 (Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains) have been a mystery to me. If they are 'physically inaccessible' how can they do anything? And when made accessible, are they still RS1? It would be like encapsulating sugar in a copper pellet and calling it 'resistant sucrose'.

    If you study up on starch, you will see that under an electron microscope, resistant starch has unique properties. It has to do with the packaging, shape and cell structure. They use the term 'X-Ray Diffraction Pattern' http://www.academicjournals.org/JCO/...%20et%20al.pdf when determining RS. It was originally thought that RS was a function of amylose vs amylopectin starch molecules--but that proved irrelevant.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    There is some research suggesting that butyrate from colonic fiber fermentation and DHA work "in a coordinated fashion" to trigger mitochondrial-mediated benefits in colonocytes: "Interactive Effects of Fatty Acid and Butyrate-Induced Mitochondrial Ca2, Loading and Apoptosis in Colonocytes," Interactive effects of fatty acid and butyrate-induced mitochondrial Ca2+ loading and apoptosis in colonocytes - Kolar - 2011 - Cancer - Wiley Online Library

    Docosahexaenoic Acid and Butyrate Synergistically Induce Colonocyte Apoptosis by Enhancing Mitochondrial Ca2+ Accumulation, 2007, Docosahexaenoic Acid and Butyrate Synergistically Induce Colonocyte Apoptosis by Enhancing Mitochondrial Ca2+ Accumulation
    PaleoPhil - You buried probably the most important study you have dug up! I found these very interesting. This indicates that butyrate becomes much more potent at protecting the colon when omega 3 levels are correct. Maybe that's one of the missing links in this puzzle!

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    The 'fiber' you get with a Big Ass Salad is minimal. Most of the fiber found on a salad bar or produce aisle is non-fermentable by gut microbes, and much of the fermentable fiber is fermented equally throughout the gut by all it's inhabitants.

    Fiber that ends up mainly as butyrate includes pectins, gums, and resistant starches. The other fibers like cellulose, fructans, inulin, and the whole FODMAP lineup provide stool bulking properties and some prebiotic action--but don't have the targeted butyrate production that RS has.

    The best 'fiber' consumption one could strive for is a mix of all the fiber types, with RS being a majority. Aiming for 40g of fiber per day with RS being at least 50% of that is a good start.
    Is the question we're discussing 'how much fiber do we need'? If so, it's quite clear to me that I do not need anywhere near the amount the FDA says. Fiber is either soluble or insoluble. The insoluble fiber is neither fermented nor digested and provides bulk only. The soluble fiber is both fermented and digested.

    Or are we asking 'how much butyrate do we need'? "Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production, and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer." - From your Wiki link.

    Salad bars usually have lettuce, and pale green at that. I eat dark greens (and reds) - kale, chard, beet, dandelion, etc., not lettuce. These greens are high in soluble fibers. I also make sure I have plenty of live gut bacteria (from probiotics if needed) to ferment them.

    "Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer." - from your Wiki link.

    How much is hard to answer. Certainly I don't need as much as the FDA says. The best way I know is the C-RP general inflammation test. If you're under 1.00 you're probably not going to have ulcerative colitis (UC) or colorectal cancer.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16633129

    Here's a interesting study: http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=16226. It does give some numbers on the 'how much' questions.
    Last edited by Cryptocode; 08-19-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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  10. #140
    otzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptocode View Post
    Is the question we're discussing 'how much fiber do we need'? If so, it's quite clear to me that I do not need anywhere near the amount the FDA says. Fiber is either soluble or insoluble. The insoluble fiber is neither fermented nor digested and provides bulk only. The soluble fiber is both fermented and digested.

    How much is a difficult question to answer. The best way I know, and I'm sure there are better, is the C-RP test.

    Or are we asking 'how much butyrate do we need'? "Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production, and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer." - From your Wiki link.

    Salad bars usually have lettuce. I eat greens - kale, chard, beet, dandelion, etc., not lettuce. These greens are high in soluble fibers. I also make sure I have plenty of live gut bacteria (from probiotics if needed) to ferment them.

    "Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer." - from your Wiki link.
    Just like you had to 'un-learn' conventional wisdom when you went Primal, it may do you some good to 'un-learn' what you think you know about fiber and probiotics.

    Soluble and insoluble are ancient terms that have no meaning. These terms are more geared toward food manufacturers who add fiber to foods, AKA 'functional fibers'. The prebiotics found in yogurt, kefir, and fermented veggies do more good in fermenting the original food and making it easier to digest and unlock some minerals/vitamins, but most of them never make it to your large intestine where there should already be teeming colonies of them. The reason there are not teeming colonies is because most people don't eat the right foods--the foods that butyrate-producing bacteria thrive on.

    Soluble and insoluble only refers to the fiber's relationship with water, not whether it ferments or not. Fermentable and non-fermentable would have been the better designator for fiber, but gut bacteria was not well studied when fiber was first talked about.

    Look at the definition of fiber:
    Dietary fiber, dietary fibre, or sometimes roughage and ruffage is the indigestible portion of food derived from plants and waste of animals that eat dietary fiber. (Wikipedia, Dietary Fiber)
    It's further broken down:
    Soluble fiber dissolves in water. It is readily fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active byproducts, and can be prebiotic and/or viscous. Soluble fibers tend to slow the movement of food through the system.
    Insoluble fiber does not dissolve in water. It can be metabolically inert and provide bulking or prebiotic, metabolically fermenting in the large intestine. Bulking fibers absorb water as they move through the digestive system, easing defecation.[1] Fermentable insoluble fibers mildly promote stool regularity, although not to the extent that bulking fibers do, but they can be readily fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active byproducts. Insoluble fibers tend to accelerate the movement of food through the system.
    So, according to this, soluble fiber 'readily ferments in the colon' whereas insoluble fiber 'metabolically ferment[s] in the large intestine' huh?

    I think it is very clear that all types of fiber are needed, but fermentable fibers, especially the ones preferred by butyrate-producing gut bacteria (pectins, gums, resistant starch) are of primary concern, yet underrepresented in SAD and paleo/primal to an even greater extent.

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