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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    That's hard to say. I think the connection with RS and sleep, for me at least, was a steady supply of glucose through the night. I was having this cycle of jolting awake at 3am every night. A plausible explanation was that I was running low on glucose and mechanisms were kicking in to supply glucose from liver stores which requires some adrenalin and other hormones. Since doing the RS thing for the past 6 months or so, I sleep like a baby. I can't say it ever makes me tired in any way.
    OK, was just wondering if you had heard of a RS/sleep connection during the day (sleepiness after a work-out). The RS was probably irrelevant and more to do with the fact that I had a massive PWO meal (pound of lamb, cabbage and pound of potatoes), was hungry again two hours later, then had the kefir/starch shake and then fell asleep Fasting and feasting, I love it.
    Kefir was a big revelation to me and, together with potatoes, is a valuable addition to my primal diet. As I said I'll experiment a bit with the potato starch.

  2. #102
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    @FlyingPig: Yes, eating a pound of cooked potatoes (containing lots more easily-digested starch than RS) is way more likely to cause short-term sleepiness than RS. RS is spoken of working in terms of overnight, rather than within a couple hours, because it has to descend all the way to the colon. One major reason I've been experimenting with RS is because more easily digestible "safe starch" tends to have that sort of deleterious effect on me too (daytime post-meal sleepiness, lethargy, aches and pains, lower extremity edema, etc.), whereas RS doesn't (instead, since consuming RS I have been getting daytime alertness and clear-headedness, easily falling asleep at night, sound sleep--though it seemed like I was already sleeping rather soundly--and improved blood glucose readings).

    @Otzi:

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    You realize you are putting these guys out of business, right? UCAN Fitness

    These guys made a sports drink with special high RS corn starch. It only costs $2 per serving and they recommend 2-3 servings a day. Potato starch, by comparison, costs $5 for a one month supply, and does the EXACT SAME THING.
    What about their claim that Superstarch is different from RS and is actually digested in the stomach, just slowly so that it doesn't spike the BG?

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    That's hard to say. I think the connection with RS and sleep, for me at least, was a steady supply of glucose through the night.
    But if RS is mostly converted to SCFA, then isn't it more likely due to a steady supply of anti-inflammatory SCFAs to the brain (via brain mitochondria), rather than glucose? Here's my speculative chain of causation, based on utterly bogus brief Googling (and inspired in part by my bizarre fascination with mitochondria, which Peter of the Hyperlipid blog seems to share, and he could probably put together a better chain of causation):

    Mitochondria love SCFAs, which help keep them alive and promote mitochondrial biogenesis and also induce autophagy (repair mode) and inhibit inflammation, which keeps the little mitochondria beasties from dying:

    > Mitochondrial Preference for Short Chain Fatty Acid Oxidation During Coronary Artery Constriction, 2002, http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/105/3/367.full.pdf

    > Impact of Short- and Medium-Chain Fatty Acids on Mitochondrial Function in Severe Inflammation. - ResearchGate

    > Short-chain fatty acids induced autophagy serves as an adaptive strategy for retarding mitochondria-mediated apoptotic cell death

    > Autophagy promotes tumor cell survival and restr... [Cancer Cell. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    Healthy brain mitochondria break down glucose into energy for the brain:

    > Glucose Oxidation by Brain Mitochondria, 1955, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00859-0091.pdf

    Which tells the brain that all is well and it's OK to rest and repair as soon as needed and for as long as needed:

    > The energy hypothesis of sleep revisited, 2008, The energy hypothesis of sleep revisited

    > Stanford researchers suggest how sleep re-charges the brain, 1996, Stanford researchers suggest how sleep re-charges the brain

    > The Top 6 Ways to Improve Your Sleep Using Food by Dave Asprey, The Top 6 Ways to Improve Your Sleep Using Food

    When glycogen becomes depleted (such as via long-term excessively LC diets), "glycogen content falls first in areas with the highest metabolic rate," such as the brain. (Brain glycogen re-awakened, 2004, Brain glycogen re-awakened. [J Neurochem. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI) Thus, insomnia is one of the early problems that chronic LCers report: Low carb insomnia page, http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread92634.html

    The brain and the brain mitochondria are saying "Wake up! Must get glucose (fruits/honey) or animal starch (liver, eggs, shellfish) or resistant starch (raw or low-cooked RS-rich tubers or legumes) so we can survive! Get out there, hunting and gathering to get it, or wake up your wife so she can get it! Why aren't you listening to us? Have you been listening to zero carb proponents again?"
    Last edited by Paleophil; 08-14-2013 at 05:26 PM.

  3. #103
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    Paleophil, I know exactly where you are coming from, it's what got me hooked on this subject, too. RS is such a convoluted subject, which is why it gets scant attention. Each of it's individual pieces are not that impressive, but when the dots are connected you really see the beauty in it.

    SuperStarch, the miracle sports drink made from a proprietary blend of hydrothermally treated corn starch, is simply cornstarch that has been repeated heated and cooled forming retrograded RS at about 30-50% by weight. The reason it's packaged as a sports drink is the same reason we mix potato starch with cold liquids. If you've looked at their website, they never mention Resistant Starch. I think this is because they know it's a hot-button term. I did a bit of digging, and found that they are using the term SuperStarch through licensing with a German company called DFEPharma, the people that hold the trademark and patent for SuperStarch SuperStarch® 200 starch excipient SuperStarch was originally intended to be used in the drug-making industry as a binder in pills, and is sold in 50 pound bags. Read through the info on SuperStarch from DFEPharma and you see it is nothing more than pregelatinized cornstarch, but only partially pregelatined so it contains both RS and regular starch.

    Why is this important?

    Resistant starch has the ability to lower the Glycemic Index, or Glycemic Load, of any carb it is eaten alongside if it is in a substantial percentage.

    This contributes greatly to the glucose blunting effect and also second-meal effect. http://images.abbottnutrition.com/AN...on%20Table.pdf

    The magic in second-meal effect is only now coming to light:
    Originally, this effect was attributed solely to prolonged glucose absorption. However, according to a newer study, the improvement is a result of the physiological properties of the carbohydrates that are typically found in LGI foods, not simply a diminished glucose response.1 Two major properties of carbohydrates affecting glucose tolerance after a second meal are presented below:

    Prolonged Glucose Absorption:
    A possible mode of action is that slower postprandial carbohydrate absorption minimizes postprandial glycemia, which, in turn, minimizes postprandial insulin levels. Reduced insulin levels should decrease the likelihood of glucose falling to below fasting levels and triggering the formation of ketone bodies and the release of nonesterified fatty acids (NEFAs). The net result is enhanced glucose uptake by peripheral tissues.

    Colonic Fermentation:
    More recent data indicate that colonic fermentation, via short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) can also play a major role in promoting the second-meal effect. Fermentable carbohydrates stimulate glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1). Although a direct connection between colonic fermentation and carbohydrate metabolism has been established, 12 a detailed mechanism is not yet available. Likely, such a link is mediated through SCFAs that are produced as a result of colonic fermentation. A growing body of animal data indicates that SCFAs mediate GLP-1, an incretin hormone that is secreted by enteroendocrine L cells located in the distal small intestine and colon in response to food intake.13 According to Drucker et al,13 this hormone plays a key role in the regulation of carbohydrate metabolism in three ways: 1) It promotes increased beta-cell mass in the pancreas by stimulating beta-cell proliferation and by inhibiting apoptosis. 2) It helps to control glycemia by acting on glucose sensors, inhibiting gastric emptying, reducing food intake, and decreasing glucagon secretion. And, 3) it strongly stimulates insulin secretion in patients with type 2 diabetes.

    So, when I talk of potato starch being equal to SuperStarch, and RS helping with sleep due to increased glucose availabilty, it is by these mechanisms.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    1) It promotes increased beta-cell mass in the pancreas by stimulating beta-cell proliferation and by inhibiting apoptosis. 2) It helps to control glycemia by acting on glucose sensors, inhibiting gastric emptying, reducing food intake, and decreasing glucagon secretion. And, 3) it strongly stimulates insulin secretion in patients with type 2 diabetes.

    So, when I talk of potato starch being equal to SuperStarch, and RS helping with sleep due to increased glucose availabilty, it is by these mechanisms.
    Optimal Health Cave • View topic - Resistant Starch
    With SuperStarch, I assume it is about 50/50 RS and regular starch, meaning there is starch available and RS to attenuate it.
    Resistant Starch
    The difference between UCAN®, which is described as a superstarch, and resistant starch is that UCAN® does digest very slowly and therefore supplies a low and steady release of blood sugar over time. This allows increased energy and mental alertness, while still allowing fat burning, as was seen in the study on the cyclists. But it does contain some calories.
    How this reads to me is that RS doesn't itself provide a steady supply of glucose to the brain through the night. Instead, other carbs must be consumed with the RS and the RS just slows the delivery of the glucose to the brain, stretching it through the night, so one doesn't burn through it quickly and wake up at 3AM when it's gone, with the brain signaling that it's time to go gather some more food.

    Superstarch is not the same thing as RS, because SS apparently also contains more easily-digestible starch (your guess was 50/50). Thus, RS alone is not an alternative to SS unless you also add some easily-digestible starch (such as mixing some unmodified potato starch in a sports drink, fruit juice or honey).

    Do I have that right?

  5. #105
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    LC diet book authors Volek and Phinney advocate some foods rich in resistant starch (and also ordinary starch):

    "Once keto-adapted, depending on your metabolism and goals, you may be able to incorporate slow release sources of carbohydrate such as root vegetables, legumes, or UCAN's SuperStarchTM." (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: A Revolutionary Program to Extend Your Physical and Mental Performance Envelope, Chapter 6 - Carbohydrate, by Jeff S. Volek, Stephen D. Phinney)

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    How this reads to me is that RS doesn't itself provide a steady supply of glucose to the brain through the night. Instead, other carbs must be consumed with the RS and the RS just slows the delivery of the glucose to the brain, stretching it through the night, so one doesn't burn through it quickly and wake up at 3AM when it's gone, with the brain signaling that it's time to go gather some more food.

    Superstarch is not the same thing as RS, because SS apparently also contains more easily-digestible starch (your guess was 50/50). Thus, RS alone is not an alternative to SS unless you also add some easily-digestible starch (such as mixing some unmodified potato starch in a sports drink, fruit juice or honey).

    Do I have that right?
    We are on the same page. The most potent RS sources we have ID'd (potato/tapioca starch) contain at most 80% RS, the other 20% must be easily digestible starch. If that was all you ate for carbs, then it would not be similar to SuperStarch, but I think if you add some potato starch to a fruit smoothie or the sour cream on your potato, or along with any medium carb intake, then it acts like a buffer for the release of the glucose--that seems to be the theory anyway, and I can see it pretty well by checking my pp BG after a plain potato or a potato+potato starch. Big difference.

    I was being a bit facetious when I said it was a direct replacement for SuperStarch, I actually think potato starch is a better choice.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleophil View Post
    LC diet book authors Volek and Phinney advocate some foods rich in resistant starch (and also ordinary starch):

    "Once keto-adapted, depending on your metabolism and goals, you may be able to incorporate slow release sources of carbohydrate such as root vegetables, legumes, or UCAN's SuperStarchTM." (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: A Revolutionary Program to Extend Your Physical and Mental Performance Envelope, Chapter 6 - Carbohydrate, by Jeff S. Volek, Stephen D. Phinney)
    That's funny! If you ask Attia, their unpaid spokesman, he will tell you SuperStarch is not resistant starch. Of course it is! UCan just doesn't want people to figure out they are paying $2 for 2 cents worth of Hi-Maize.

    Did you know there is a whole Resistant Starch Diet out there? It's called the Skinny Carbs Diet. The Skinny Carbs Diet - Diet Review

    The Skinny Carbs Diet is a cookbook that allows you to eat pasta and potatoes as well as use the power of resistant starch to fight fat and beat cravings. The book is written by David Feder and the editors of Prevention Magazine. This book will be released on September 14, 2010 and focuses on the benefits of resistant starch for health benefits and to help you lose weight. Some of the best foods for resistant starch include bananas, potatoes, bread and pasta. The cookbook includes over 150 recipes that include those special resistant starch ingredients. Some of the different categories of recipes include breakfasts, lunch, soups sandwiches, side dishes, vegetarian entrees, desserts and salads. This cookbook also provides you with six weeks’ worth of menus with food items taken directly from the cookbook. This isn’t just a cookbook as it explains how the diet works, gives a thorough background to what resistant starch is and gives detailed instructions on how to prepare your foods.

    DIET and NUTRITION This diet program focuses on using the resistant starch that comes in certain carbohydrate rich foods to benefit your health. You can actually lose weight while consuming carbs contrary to information that has previously been given. There are over 150 recipes included in this cookbook to give lots of variety to your diet. The book also includes a six week supply of menus using recipes that are included in the book.
    I read some of their recipes and menus--very grain and legume heavy.. No mention of just going straight for potato or tapioca starch.

  8. #108
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    Your quote of Peter at hyperlipid and reference to SCFA has me interested again. Do you/can you reconcile his approach of attaining SCFA from his food rather than feeding little buggers in the gut to get it second hand? Just curious. I know this has been almost done to death, but since you seem to read him I was just curious.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Your quote of Peter at hyperlipid and reference to SCFA has me interested again. Do you/can you reconcile his approach of attaining SCFA from his food rather than feeding little buggers in the gut to get it second hand? Just curious. I know this has been almost done to death, but since you seem to read him I was just curious.
    I'd be interested in this conversation as well. I don't want to take a supplement, I want food sources.
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammies View Post
    I'd be interested in this conversation as well. I don't want to take a supplement, I want food sources.
    I have it on good authority that Peter D. is looking into the mechanisms behind RS, SCFA, glucose control, and NEFA interactions. Hopefully he will blog on it soon.

    I am leaning towards the idea that if one is eating a high fat, very low carb diet, then gut fermentation of carb fractions is not that important. However, if one is eating a carb-containing omnivore diet, then fermentable fiber should be a huge consideration.

    As omnivores, we are adapted to eat a wide variety of foods. When eating carbs/starches/sugars in a platform that only includes minimal fermentable carbohydrates, I feel we are doing ourselves a grave disservice.

    Jammies - the only food sources that don't require eating way more food than you are used to, ie. 2-3 potatoes or 3-4 cups of cold rice per day, are beans and bananas. 1/2 cup of lentils, peas, or legumes has the same RS as 1 large, cold potato (approx 5g). A greenish banana, in it's edibility phase would also contain about 5g. In order to get the oftentimes recommended 20g of RS per day, one needs to consume a steady supply of potatoes, beans, bananas, and rice. Some can pull this off, I have a hard time. I use potato starch and tapioca starch, both have approx 7.5g per TBS. It incorporates well into cold beverages or liquid foods like yogurt, sour cream, ice cream, etc... I don't really consider it a supplement per se, as I could make these items at home with a bit of time and minimal equipment.

    I have come to believe that a person eating carbs daily needs about 40g of fermentable fiber, with RS being 1/2 - 3/4 of this. The rest should come from other plant fibers easily found on Primal Blueprint. On days I don't hit my real-food RS target, I make up with raw starch.

    Other real-food options include raw potato (5g per 1/2" slice), plantains (about 35g each)--not bad when salted and dried, plantain flour in cold concoctions, and eating nuts provides a bit more, but at a heavy calorie toll (5-10g/cup).
    Last edited by otzi; 08-15-2013 at 10:44 PM.

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