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Thread: Danny Roddy slams Paleo on Matt Stone's Blog page 13

  1. #121
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    And seriously. When people are like, "How can I do Paleo on a budget?" Duuuude, eat Peat! For $5 bucks a day you can eat deeply nourishing foods. Don't buy that overpriced trendy stuff if you can't really afford it! Expensive "organic" vegetables that traveled 3000 miles to your marked up grocery store? Pfft. Potatoes, carrots, bananas, liver, canned oysters, eggs, white rice, and dairy if you do it. Shave some stress off your life.
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  2. #122
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    Danny markets his material to MPB (AA) sufferers though, not diffuse or other hair loss style sufferers. In fact most of his work addresses male pattern baldness, not any other type of it.

    The labs Danny recommended were over $1k where I live and didn't seem worth it.

    Anyways, in his EBook, Danny recommended a mostly liquid diet; mainly OJ and milk with other foods you mentioned in your diet. I branched off later that year, after that failed, and ate all of the things you linked quite frequently in fact, though I got my gelatin from a local pho restaurant. Their bone broth was great and was sweetened with rock sugar which seemed pretty Peat to me. I even fried corn chips in coconut oil and ate the Peat recommended Morton's Canning Salt! (lol)

    Yeah it just didn't work for me long term. Sorry. Too much fructose and the corn chips and popcorn in coconut oil gave me digestive issues (grain alert).

    I know that Peat doesn't have any agenda. He seems like a very nice man who wants to help people get better. Unfortunately, I just didn't get better from those recommendations, though like I wrote, 20% of my calories that year were cheats like pizza and beer. So who knows...

    I'm surprised at all the Peat fans on this primal forum btw!
    Last edited by KaleChips; 07-24-2013 at 10:22 PM.

  3. #123
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    The peat crowd sprouted last year like household pests. I don't even know who started the migration, but it's been getting worse. I tried the traps and the spray but they keep coming back. I think we're up to six or seven, maybe more now.


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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaleChips View Post
    Danny's a fascinating guy. I respect him very much, appreciate his hard work, and I purchased his EBook on male pattern baldness as a sufferer myself. I'm hesitant to write this post as I have so much respect for him. I actually ate around 80% of his diet for a bit over a year. During that time, I had no hair regrowth, in fact it kept falling out at the same rate. I had accelerated facial aging, acne and breakouts, gained 15lbs more than I had on the S.A.D, developed a double chin (my first ever!), was hyper, didn't sleep well, and had crazed "DurianRideresque" moments from too much fructose and minimal Vitamin K as it is a zero vegetable diet save a daily carrot salad (which is disgusting). That's right folks. Zero vegetables.

    What's funny and pathetic is that I stuck it out as his work seemed so genuine. To be fair of course, during that time I still drank beer and smoked cigarettes somewhat frequently. So I can't be 100% sure that it was his diet that caused the troubles. Still though, here's the thing. When you take in 50% of your calories as juiced fruit as he recommends, you are hungry all the time. I was always hungry on that diet and would constantly break down and eat pizzas every week, or splurge on Ray Peat's recommended popcorn popped in coconut oil which gave me digestive issues. On Primal, I am almost 100% satisfied on a lower calorie amount of paleo foods. I don't crave pizza and beer anymore. I weigh my high school weight and look better than I did throughout my late 20s and early 30s. It just WORKS.

    I wanted to write this as a warning to those contemplating trying out a high carb, fructose based diet. IMO, fruit isn't terrible, but that much juiced fruit just makes you feel like you're starving all the time. If you keep the fiber "digestive buffer" on fruit, the fructose is more slowly absorbed and you don't get that feeling. At least I don't. But according to Danny, that fiber raises estrogen. Well that's fine. I'll take that over insane pizza cravings and the massive amount of other negative symptoms of too much fructose.

    I think Danny's on to a lot of things with his hormonal studies, especially with PUFA consumption, and I certainly hope he continues his work. But he needs serious, real life revisions to his proposed diet on HLAF. I didn't read his most recent EBook, so I don't know if he has changed that yet.
    I'm really sorry to hear you had such a bad experience Kalechips.

    I wish that the pioneers of diets would include a disclaimer that THIS MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU. Even as a vegetarian, I was never so dumb to think that a diet of lentils and rice would suit big, strapping rugby players.

    Danny's diet wasn't for you, in the same that low carb doesn't work for a lot of people. There are some people who do well low carb, some do well high carb, some thrive on dairy, some can eat wheat. The problem is that many people try to put diet into a category of perfection, and there isn't one.

    I haven't read Danny's book, so don't know how similar it is to Peat's work, but personally eating VLC+LC pushed my already delicate health over the edge. I've been edging towards Peat for the last seven months, and have really embraced it in the last month, and have literally never felt better. But, if I start to feel bad again, I'll openly re-examine it. Making any diet a religion just forces you to ignore your inner God (your body), and get trapped into dogma.

    If you start to have symptoms with any diet, you need to give it up. That's the disclaimer that should be given with every diet, whether it's Primal, or Hair Like a Fox.

    Btw, there is a thread here on regrowing hair. Don't know how helpful it would be for MPB, but it might be worth checking out

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread42877.html


    Quote Originally Posted by KaleChips View Post
    I'm surprised at all the Peat fans on this primal forum btw!
    The two woes are extremely compatible!


    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    The peat crowd sprouted last year like household pests. I don't even know who started the migration, but it's been getting worse. I tried the traps and the spray but they keep coming back. I think we're up to six or seven, maybe more now.
    There's at least ten of us, and we have new conversions every day!

    Ironically knife, I think you'd enjoy his writing.
    Last edited by YogaBare; 07-25-2013 at 01:02 AM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  5. #125
    Rocco Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaleChips View Post
    Wow, people are still debating Danny Roddy's work associated with Ray Peat. Well here's the deal. His diet is 80% milk and orange juice.
    Danny Roddy's may be. Some other's aswell. A 'Ray Peat Diet' is not 80% Milk and OJ, however. Peat favours dairy over meat, amongst other reasons because of the high tryptophan content in meat. I know you're referring to Roddy here, but the ignorants among us who refuse to actually research with an open mind will likely believe Peat recommends an 80% Milk and OJ diet. He doesn't. Everything is contextual. I don't think he intended everyone to drink Milk and OJ for the rest of their lives.

    While in a previous thread, everyone jumped on PaleoBird for using common sense over science, drinking milk and OJ for months on end doesn't work, period.
    Not if that's mainly what you're consuming, no. This is where common sense comes in.

    It doesn't matter how much science is behind the good parts of drinking OJ and milk as your main source of calories. It... doesn't... work. You can find positive things in any overall negative situation. Say your grandmother fell down the stairs and you inherited all of her money. Overall, it's a bad thing. Check out Ray Peat forums and you'll find this type of thing freaking over and over and over again. People on RP forums use broscience to even state that organic cigarette smoking is good for you. Well sure, it has beneficial aspects, but overall it is 99% terrible and deadly.
    Again, use common sense. I have not seen where Roddy or Peat advocate 80% of one's diet should come from Milk and OJ. It's not intended to be a liquid diet. Or a 'diet' at all.

    Danny's a fascinating guy. I respect him very much, appreciate his hard work, and I purchased his EBook on male pattern baldness as a sufferer myself. I'm hesitant to write this post as I have so much respect for him. I actually ate around 80% of his diet for a bit over a year. During that time, I had no hair regrowth, in fact it kept falling out at the same rate. I had accelerated facial aging, acne and breakouts, gained 15lbs more than I had on the S.A.D, developed a double chin (my first ever!), was hyper, didn't sleep well, and had crazed "DurianRideresque" moments from too much fructose and minimal Vitamin K as it is a zero vegetable diet save a daily carrot salad (which is disgusting). That's right folks. Zero vegetables.
    Do you mean you basically consumed an 80% OJ and Milk diet 80% of the time? What else did you consume of the foods that Peat has recommended? Seafood, liver, beef, Cheese, fruits, butter, coconut oil, potatoe?

    'The Peat Diet' is also NOT a zero vegetable diet. Kale is even briefly talked about as being a good digestible vegetable, if cooked well.

    What's funny and pathetic is that I stuck it out as his work seemed so genuine. To be fair of course, during that time I still drank beer and smoked cigarettes somewhat frequently.
    I once tried to abstain from ejaculating for 90 days, but I just couldn't stop jacking off.

    EDIT: With the amount of liquid you were already consuming, adding beer ontop of that was a pretty poor idea.

    So I can't be 100% sure that it was his diet that caused the troubles. Still though, here's the thing. When you take in 50% of your calories as juiced fruit as he recommends, you are hungry all the time.
    Peat does not recommend 50% of calories from liquid AT ALL. It's contextual. This is possibly Roddy's recommendation, although you'd have to quote him for me to believe that. My context is that I am not hungry after drinking Milk or OJ, your is different. But we have teeth, use them. I do!

    I was always hungry on that diet and would constantly break down and eat pizzas every week, or splurge on Ray Peat's recommended popcorn popped in coconut oil which gave me digestive issues.
    Then don't eat popcorn, I don't. It's really that simple. His recommendation of popcorn is again contextual. It's not a dietary recommendation, but what he often does is evaluate foods and their effects and says something like,'That's ok for such and such a reason'. He never says,'Eat popcorn, it a superfood!'. Unless you'd like to provide an exact quote?

    On Primal, I am almost 100% satisfied on a lower calorie amount of paleo foods. I don't crave pizza and beer anymore. I weigh my high school weight and look better than I did throughout my late 20s and early 30s. It just WORKS.
    While it's great that something works for you, it's not in itself evidence for the perils of Peats work, since you likely did not apply any common sense or reason to your experiment, and most definitely have mis-interpreted it. Much in the same way that I see people mis-interpreting Paleo to mean eating bacon and eggs drenched in oil with a side of Starbucks coffee.

    I wanted to write this as a warning to those contemplating trying out a high carb, fructose based diet. IMO, fruit isn't terrible, but that much juiced fruit just makes you feel like you're starving all the time.
    No, it makes YOU feel hungry all the time. It doesn't make ME hungry all the time, because I know that the body wants a steady supply of fat throughout the day aswell. You've misinterpreted someone's work. Perhaps Roddy is not that helpful in this case, but he does what he does because he has experimented with himself almost obsessively.

    If you keep the fiber "digestive buffer" on fruit, the fructose is more slowly absorbed and you don't get that feeling. At least I don't. But according to Danny, that fiber raises estrogen. Well that's fine. I'll take that over insane pizza cravings and the massive amount of other negative symptoms of too much fructose.
    Peat does favour sugar over starch, but he also states that should one tolerate starch then it should remain a healthy part of your intake.

    I think Danny's on to a lot of things with his hormonal studies, especially with PUFA consumption, and I certainly hope he continues his work. But he needs serious, real life revisions to his proposed diet on HLAF. I didn't read his most recent EBook, so I don't know if he has changed that yet.
    I agree, and although I understand you are clearly referencing Roddy throughout this post, his work is heavily influence by Peat. This does not mean he's a spokeperson for Peat, not does it mean that his work represents what Peat has done or said or written. 80% Milk and OJ 'diet' is not what Peat recommends, especially not as life-long diet. BTW, Peat even eats Bacon sometimes - just cooks it in a different way to reduce pufa content.

    Milk, Cheese, OJ, fruits(type depends on context), salt, seafood, liver, beef, lamb(or any red meat really), oxtail, Bone Broth, Ice Cream, Potato, squash, carrot, coffee, gelatin, KALE, white rice and various other things which i cannot remember are ALL things that Peat 'recommends' and talks/has written about from a CONTEXTUAL perspective. Meaning, what you take from the research he has done is entirely dependant on your context. Otherwise your post is pretty hyperbolic.

    And fwiw, there are people on the Ray Peat forums and beyond who have either 100% cured or are atleast stabilising their hypothyroid and metabolism problems. Peat writes from metabolic perspective - i.e, is it broken? Well here's what I've found!

    He is also keen to point out that there is no 'Peat Diet'. Sometimes we have to put it like that so people have a general understanding. If any Peatards can see that I've mis-represented his work in this post then please point it out, I'm still learning.
    Last edited by Rocco Hill; 07-25-2013 at 02:34 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaleChips View Post
    I'm surprised at all the Peat fans on this primal forum btw!
    Peat food recommendations all fall under the Paleo/Primal/PHD umbrella. All eating Peat is is basically high-carb Primal/PHD with PUFA minimization. Some people naturally minimize PUFAs and eat a lot of fruit. It doesn't need a label. A few people just took the opportunity to misrepresent it and take it out of context based on the Mexican Coke and gummy bears that are really insignificant sometimes-foods that not everyone eats. People who modify Primal for nutritional ketosis or mono food diets are doing the exact same thing they criticize Peat eaters for: They simply adjust the quantities of all "allowed" foods to their needs. So what? The steak and eggs hack and nutritional ketosis aren't accurate long-term depictions of Primal anymore than Peat is. Mark has one teaspoon of sugar in his coffee, Derp has 470 (heh). It's all the same substances in personalized quantities, as it should be.
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  7. #127
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    Mark loves sugar. He secretly wants to consume it all day long

    His Egg Coffee article was actually very interesting from a Peatarian perspective. I do think Sissons a complete dude though. Looking like him at 60 or so would be awesome. That said, he ate alot of carbohydrate for a large part of his life(as far as i remember, haven't read his book in years). I do wonder what he would look/feel like had he eaten 'primally' his whole life.

    I must get his Primal connection book.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco Hill View Post
    Danny Roddy's may be. Some other's aswell. A 'Ray Peat Diet' is not 80% Milk and OJ, however. Peat favours dairy over meat, amongst other reasons because of the high tryptophan content in meat. I know you're referring to Roddy here, but the ignorants among us who refuse to actually research with an open mind will likely believe Peat recommends an 80% Milk and OJ diet. He doesn't. Everything is contextual. I don't think he intended everyone to drink Milk and OJ for the rest of their lives.
    Cannot emphasize this enough. I had this discussion with YogaBare a while back. She thought a Peat diet was actually mostly liquid and I couldn't disagree more, lol. I'd never be into a diet I perceived to be that. That's extreme. It may work for some people, but most Peat eaters are not 80% liquid from what I observe.

    Again, use common sense. I have not seen where Roddy or Peat advocate 80% of one's diet should come from Milk and OJ. It's not intended to be a liquid diet. Or a 'diet' at all.
    This!

    Here is a screen shot from one of my Peat-oriented menus. (Note that this is done with intermittent fasting, so the calories may appear high but they average out to less over time.)





    It's a very nutritious protocol if you execute it properly.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Cannot emphasize this enough. I had this discussion with YogaBare a while back. She thought a Peat diet was actually mostly liquid and I couldn't disagree more, lol. I'd never be into a diet I perceived to be that. That's extreme. It may work for some people, but most Peat eaters are not 80% liquid from what I observe.
    we-ell, I was referring to the Peat "Purists", but that could just be my perception I consider my diet very Peat, and I don't drink OJ or milk (they both bloat me).


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco Hill View Post
    Mark loves sugar. He secretly wants to consume it all day long

    His Egg Coffee article was actually very interesting from a Peatarian perspective. I do think Sissons a complete dude though. Looking like him at 60 or so would be awesome. That said, he ate alot of carbohydrate for a large part of his life(as far as i remember, haven't read his book in years). I do wonder what he would look/feel like had he eaten 'primally' his whole life.

    I must get his Primal connection book.
    I'm convinced that Mark is secretly reading Peat He wrote a while back that he's consuming less meat these days, and when he does consume it he goes for gelatinous cuts. Mark has never been terrified of sugar either: that's part of the dogma that mushroomed through this Primal movement.
    Last edited by YogaBare; 07-25-2013 at 04:35 AM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  10. #130
    Rocco Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    we-ell, I was referring to the Peat "Purists", but that could just be my perception I consider my diet very Peat, and I don't drink OJ or milk (they both bloat me).
    Do you eat cheese?


    I'm convinced that Mark is secretly reading Peat He wrote a while back that he's consuming less meat these days, and when he does consume it he goes for gelatinous cuts. Mark has never been terrified of sugar either: that's part of the dogma that mushroomed through this Primal movement.
    Oh I know - but reading the last paragraph of his Egg-Coffee article shows that he needs to placate to the sugar-phobic among the Primal Posse. It permeates this forum aswell - someone tried to claim fruit was the root of most of 'our' problems the other day

    Realising that I could and probably should eat less meat than I had been was frankly a blessing for me. Same with eggs, of which I now eat about 3 a day as opposed to 6 or 9. Now I take Gelatin with meat. I remember a poster called Stabby writing something about Gelatin on here ages ago.
    Last edited by Rocco Hill; 07-25-2013 at 04:43 AM.

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