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Thread: Danny Roddy slams Paleo on Matt Stone's Blog page 12

  1. #111
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diene View Post
    I think that, technically, he's not rejecting the idea that cells have walls--well, plant cells have walls, and mammalian cells have membranes. He's not saying that cells don't have membranes; he's rejecting the idea that the cell membrane acts as a barrier. I've only read about this in his thyroid articles, and his contention was that protein-bound T3 can enter cells because the idea that cell membranes act as a barrier to macromolecules like proteins is wrong. I find this theory to be interesting as well, and there is no reason why it cannot be right. However, you are right that it flies in the face of broad scientific consensus, and I must admit that I find it a bit difficult to swallow. But I was educated under the modern paradigm (didn't know that it was modern, but according to Peat, the scientific community didn't used to subscribe to the idea that cell membranes acted as barriers) and the idea that cell membranes acted as barriers is pretty basic. I think that his theory can easily be tested, and if I still had an academic subscription to all the online journals, I'd do some research on that topic. In any case, it seems to me that all you'd have to do is tag some protein-bound T3 and then observe whether the tagged protein can enter into cells. I'm guessing that it's a soluble protein so it should be possible to purify it and then tag it with a fluorophore.

    Maybe there's some other heretofore unknown mechanism by which protein-bound T3 is transported into cells. It doesn't have to be either (1) it can never enter cells and so only the unbound or free T3 is biologically active OR (2) it can diffuse through cell membranes. There could very well be a third explanation.
    Reminds me of a post I read a while back by Peter:

    Hyperlipid: Do you believe in MRI scanners?

    "I was thinking about mitochondria, but I got sidetracked when I remembered Ling and his opinion about ATP. Here's how it went:

    The vast majority of the energy production in our bodies occurs in our mitochondria. These are the tiny powerhouses which generate most of the high energy adenosine tri phosphate (ATP) on which we ultimately run our metabolism.

    NB an aside; Gilbert Ling does not believe in ATP as an energy source for cells (though he thinks it is a crucial molecule), any more than he believes in the lipid bi-layer cell membrane or the sodium/potassium ATP pump. He is truly out on a limb with his "Association Induction Hypothesis" of life at cell and below cell level. A fruitcake, obviously. Except his ideas on the localisation of cell water around proteins led to the invention of the MRI scanner. If MRI scanners work, that cookie Ling is right. And almost all of modern physiology is wrong.

    It is, for me personally, MUCH easier to think within the "normal" physiology of my education. But, because MRI scanners work, this is the equivalent of thinking that the table in front of me is "solid" when quantum mechanics tells me that it is anything but solid...

    Now there's a thought.

    Peter"

    Fringe science that don't make the textbooks is nutso right! http://www.gilbertling.org/

    Probably right up the Peat alley if I 'm right?
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-24-2013 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #112
    TheyCallMeLazarus's Avatar
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    "Gilbert Ling does not believe in ATP as an energy source for cells"

    That is not a minor charge. That is the equivalent of saying "DNA is not the source of our genes". It is going against about 70 years of biochemistry, most of which has been proven beyond much reasonable rebuttal any longer. Again, you can say that, but you better have MOUNTAINS of data and more than one guy that will vouch for you. Otherwise you are just grandstanding.

    "Dr. Lazarus doesn't believe in cells."....ok, well who gives a rats behind. But hey, I got my name out there out of the obscurity it was under before! I am a snowflake researcher, a rebel with the REAL science all by myself! Put me on the internet!

    The fact that someone realized, by accident, that one could image the water collecting around proteins via the different ions they emit does NOT repudiate decades of biochem.....in the same breadth, alleles were not disproved by Watson and Crick imaging the DNA molecule. These are separate theories, and the validity of one does not make fallacy of something unrelated.

    I have a simple rule in ALL of science and medicine.

    Anytime I see "Person _______'s theory on thermodynamics/retinal surgery/biochem", in any other form but an actual study with falsifiable claims, I am going to presume they are a fruitcake grandstander until proven otherwise. ONE guy does not disprove the work of many thousands because some people on the internet wrote about it, and there is no shortage of angst-ridden researchers trying to make names for themselves by throwing out deliberately contrarian, if unverified, claims about just about anything.

  3. #113
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    Wow, people are still debating Danny Roddy's work associated with Ray Peat. Well here's the deal. His diet is 80% milk and orange juice. While in a previous thread, everyone jumped on PaleoBird for using common sense over science, drinking milk and OJ for months on end doesn't work, period. It doesn't matter how much science is behind the good parts of drinking OJ and milk as your main source of calories. It... doesn't... work. You can find positive things in any overall negative situation. Say your grandmother fell down the stairs and you inherited all of her money. Overall, it's a bad thing. Check out Ray Peat forums and you'll find this type of thing freaking over and over and over again. People on RP forums use broscience to even state that organic cigarette smoking is good for you. Well sure, it has beneficial aspects, but overall it is 99% terrible and deadly.

    Danny's a fascinating guy. I respect him very much, appreciate his hard work, and I purchased his EBook on male pattern baldness as a sufferer myself. I'm hesitant to write this post as I have so much respect for him. I actually ate around 80% of his diet for a bit over a year. During that time, I had no hair regrowth, in fact it kept falling out at the same rate. I had accelerated facial aging, acne and breakouts, gained 15lbs more than I had on the S.A.D, developed a double chin (my first ever!), was hyper, didn't sleep well, and had crazed "DurianRideresque" moments from too much fructose and minimal Vitamin K as it is a zero vegetable diet save a daily carrot salad (which is disgusting). That's right folks. Zero vegetables.

    What's funny and pathetic is that I stuck it out as his work seemed so genuine. To be fair of course, during that time I still drank beer and smoked cigarettes somewhat frequently. So I can't be 100% sure that it was his diet that caused the troubles. Still though, here's the thing. When you take in 50% of your calories as juiced fruit as he recommends, you are hungry all the time. I was always hungry on that diet and would constantly break down and eat pizzas every week, or splurge on Ray Peat's recommended popcorn popped in coconut oil which gave me digestive issues. On Primal, I am almost 100% satisfied on a lower calorie amount of paleo foods. I don't crave pizza and beer anymore. I weigh my high school weight and look better than I did throughout my late 20s and early 30s. It just WORKS.

    I wanted to write this as a warning to those contemplating trying out a high carb, fructose based diet. IMO, fruit isn't terrible, but that much juiced fruit just makes you feel like you're starving all the time. If you keep the fiber "digestive buffer" on fruit, the fructose is more slowly absorbed and you don't get that feeling. At least I don't. But according to Danny, that fiber raises estrogen. Well that's fine. I'll take that over insane pizza cravings and the massive amount of other negative symptoms of too much fructose.

    I think Danny's on to a lot of things with his hormonal studies, especially with PUFA consumption, and I certainly hope he continues his work. But he needs serious, real life revisions to his proposed diet on HLAF. I didn't read his most recent EBook, so I don't know if he has changed that yet.

  4. #114
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    ^^^ Very strong n=1. A perspective many of us cannot give....well done

  5. #115
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    Indeed. Ray Peat doesn't sound so bad, except for the 'drinking calories' part.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
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    bloodorchid is always right

  6. #116
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    KaleChips, did you ever get lab work done? Simply rushing into anything gung ho isn't the best idea in the world, and you should at least be aware of how you're feeling. I think what Roddy recommends are guidelines, meant to be tweaked to the individual. If you weren't satisfied drinking 80% of your calories, you can easily replace the fruit juice and milk with similar solid foods. I'm personally quite satiated by OJ, and can't even drink more than 32oz of it in a single sitting and that's on an empty stomach. Milk also fills me up unlike anything else. I still get tired of OJ and milk though, so I eat gouda cheese(funny you mentioned vitamin k, gouda cheese is abundant in k2 and can replace k entirely, as k has to be turned into k2 anyway to perform its essential functions) and fruit like mangoes. Another thing I see people having a problem with is making sure they get more nutrients to go along with the increased metabolism and sugar. For example, in my hyperthyroid state(this isn't accomplished by diet alone, btw) I felt terrible until I started taking b vitamin supplements. In a hyperthyroid state, your body burns through b vitamins really quickly, as well as vitamin a.

    People get diet guidelines mixed up in everything. Overall the point is only to minimize PUFA, get plenty of carbs, and avoid foods that contain common allergens. Here is my diet that I posted earlier in the thread:

    Oysters 4 times a week
    Gouda cheese every day 3-4oz
    Fruit usually OJ, bananas, dates, mango, some apple sauce
    Cottage cheese every day 16-32oz
    Liver once every 2 weeks 6oz
    2 eggs a day
    Coffee with sugar and half and half
    Mexican coke 1-2 a day
    Rice once in a while with San J gluten free soy sauce
    Carrots every day
    Potatoes 3x a week
    Dark chocolate 4-6 bars a week
    And tons of Knox gelatin in there

    At odd times I'll eat oxtail usually a few times a month, and sometimes I'll have beef or lamb bowls with rice and more soy sauce.
    As you can see it's vastly different than what you had going on there. Theoretically, it's very possible to subsidize almost entirely on lots of milk and OJ, but, it lacks that creativity and effort required to eat that a lot of people require to feel full. You're welcome to criticize my diet and try to find out what lacks in it.

    And, there is a perfectly logical reason behind avoiding green vegetables.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml

    They stress the gut.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 07-24-2013 at 09:04 PM.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  7. #117
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    Also, diet alone is never going to be enough to stop MPB, assuming this is what you have. If your hair loss comes from stress, hypothyroidism, etc; then, yeah, but a lot of people look at Danny Roddy's work as if it's a cure-all for MPB and it's simply not the case. I'm sure someone would have figured out that milk + oj diet cured MPB a while ago. I don't believe he ever had MPB, just diffuse thinning. He's still piecing together fascinating information from Ray Peat regarding hormones though.

    To slow MPB down(I doubt with current methods it's even possible to stop entirely) requires a more conventional approach, ie; DHT blockers, minoxidil, and various things like that.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 07-24-2013 at 09:13 PM.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  8. #118
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    When I put together all of Ray Peat's most popular food suggestions, they make an incredibly diversified and nutrient-rich diet: bone broth (gelatin source), orange juice, ruminant meats, shellfish (oysters), potatoes, assorted fruits, liver, nixtamalized corn, coconut oil, carrots, eggs, butter and all other quality dairy sources. I never got the impression that he thinks a mostly liquid diet is optimal, just convenient and economical. I think he explains things in ways that probably make sense in his head but are lost in translation. He's probably been repeating the same things for decades and has shortened his rhetoric down to a few short sentences which are vague to the average audience. He's nearly 80 years old and dispenses a shitload of information pro bono, cut him some slack.

    I like his science but I'd never ever be satisfied on a diet that was 80% liquid. That's totally unnecessary, but not necessarily unhealthy if it works for you. If it doesn't, eat whole foods with similar nutritional profiles. It's not the food that matters as much as the nutritional profile. Life is way too short to eat foods you don't like when there's so many options with the exact same benefit. Ray Peat is speaking to the masses and suggests the most economical choices. He is not a Paleo snob that will steer people to buy beef at $29/lb and organic kale at $6/lb and expensive protein powders. Gelatin and orange juice and liver are super cheap and accomplish the same thing. But it's individual, so it doesn't matter either way. The choice is yours. He's just providing the scientific explanation.
    Last edited by j3nn; 07-24-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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  9. #119
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    Oh, yes, thanks j3nn, I forgot economical factors are a major driving force to me to this way of eating. When I get really poor, being able to live off milk, bananas, eggs, gelatin, and carrots certainly helps as opposed to eating meat with its ever increasing prices.

    Also, I hope you feel better soon.

    I've emailed Ray Peat quite a few times, and he's very nice, absolutely brilliant, articulate, and completely in control of his memory and mental facilities. This is impressive for someone approaching 80 years old. He also has no agenda, and genuinely cares about misinformation and making people feel better.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  10. #120
    j3nn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Also, I hope you feel better soon.
    Thanks, Derp.<3 Me too
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