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Thread: Insuline spike after carbs meal page 2

  1. #11
    Timthetaco's Avatar
    Timthetaco Guest
    Primal Fuel
    Seems to be a bit of misunderstanding about the difference between a glucose spike and and insulin spike. Insulin is an all-around anabolic hormone; one of its functions is to get energy out of the blood and into tissues, including fat. It's necessary for the uptake of glucose and the esterification of fatty acids. An insulin spike is only a bad thing if you believe its only purpose is to punish you for eating carbohydrates.

    Also, there's a difference between having highER circulating insulin levels from eating a higher carbohydrate diet and being full-blown hyperinsulinemic. The latter is a result of insulin resistance.

    And I'm open to being corrected if I accidentally spout misinformation.

  2. #12
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    I'm finding this very fascinating! Somebody step in before I get too far down this rabbit hole...

    From: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods.

    It has been known for many years that giving normal
    individuals a second glucose meal approximately 4 h after a
    previous glucose meal results in an improved rate of glucose
    clearance.17"19 This is the so-called Staub-Traugott effect.
    We were certainly interested in determining if this effect
    would be observed when protein was given with glucose to
    diabetic subjects for three reasons. First, we had demonstrated
    a much greater insulin rise when protein was given with
    glucose as a single meal than when glucose was given alone.
    Second, we had observed a greater plasma glucose area above
    baseline and smaller insulin area above baseline when mild
    type II diabetic subjects were given 50 g of glucose compared
    with a mixed breakfast meal containing approximately 70 g
    of carbohydrate and approximately 20 g of protein.20 Lastly,
    in normal subjects receiving a 40% protein diet, we have
    previously demonstrated a reduced glucose response after a
    second and third meal were given 4 h apart.6 In these subjects
    following each meal there was a distinct, sharp rise in insulin
    that could not be accounted for by a rise in glucose concentration
    or amino acids.21


    AND

    administration alone.
    It is well known that protein ingestion stimulates a rise in
    circulating glucagon concentration; with glucose ingestion it
    is depressed.22"26 It is also clear that the circulating glucagon
    concentration depends on the ratio of protein to carbohydrate
    in the meal. If the protein-to-carbohydrate ratio is high, it
    will increase, whereas if the ratio is low, it will decrease.16
    Last edited by otzi; 12-15-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  3. #13
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Seems to be a bit of misunderstanding about the difference between a glucose spike and and insulin spike. Insulin is an all-around anabolic hormone; one of its functions is to get energy out of the blood and into tissues, including fat. It's necessary for the uptake of glucose and the esterification of fatty acids. An insulin spike is only a bad thing if you believe its only purpose is to punish you for eating carbohydrates.

    Also, there's a difference between having highER circulating insulin levels from eating a higher carbohydrate diet and being full-blown hyperinsulinemic. The latter is a result of insulin resistance.

    And I'm open to being corrected if I accidentally spout misinformation.
    But isn't the MAIN REASON we've all been eating low carb to prevent insulin spikes, ie keep circulating insulin low, to PREVENT insulin sensitivity?

  4. #14
    Timthetaco's Avatar
    Timthetaco Guest
    ?

    No. We've been eating low carb trying to keep insulin low because we falsely believe that post prandial insulin spikes cause obesity and diabetes. Unless I've been misreading the forum for an entire year. :/

  5. #15
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    Wow, this was 'topic du jour' in 2010! From comments in Insulin Index | Mark's Daily Apple
    by our beloved PKLOPP:


    A couple of points that need to be made here:

    Although insulin has been vilified in many circles, it is fundamental to the survival of the organism. If a given food does not produce an insulin response, then it cannot be assimilated by the body. The extreme example of this is Type I diabetes where the pancreas, due to a congenital defect is unable of producing insulin. Unless treated, type I diabetics literally will starve to death irrespective of the quantities of food that they ingest.

    So, when you diligently take your whey protein after your workout, you are explicitly relying on an insulin response to drive those amino acids into your muscles. Try to keep in mind what is meant by that “window of opportunity” you refer to. This is that 90 minute or so period immediately after exercising where the muscles have increased insulin sensitivity. Note, however, that insulin sensitivity means nothing if in your bloodstream there is 1) no insulin, and 2) no nutrients. So, your whey intake dovetails quite nicely with these requirements. It provides amino acids and promotes an insulin response to mediate the transport of these amino acids into the muscle cells.

    After 90 minutes, muscles return to their relatively insulin insensitive state, and the “window of opportunity” closes. The only tissues that remain insulin sensitive are the adipose tissues, and that is not something that we want to be feeding.

    When it comes to growth hormone, I would need to know what it is that you are trying to accomplish by raising GH levels? If it is increased release of free fatty acids from your adipose tissue, then that is brilliantly accomplished by fasting. If you are after muscular growth, ie increased protein synthesis, then you are better off trying to increase your testosterone levels and letting the GH take care of itself. Heavy exercise in and of itself ( within reason, don’t overtrain yourself into the ground ) will serve to boost your anabolic hormones.

    Read more: Insulin Index | Mark's Daily Apple

  6. #16
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    ?

    No. We've been eating low carb trying to keep insulin low because we falsely believe that post prandial insulin spikes cause obesity and diabetes. Unless I've been misreading the forum for an entire year. :/
    I've been misreading everything, then. Isn't insulin the evil culprit in all the paleo/low-carb diets? Now I find all-along it's not insulin? WTH

  7. #17
    Timthetaco's Avatar
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    There's a reason there are high carb paleo dieters. They don't believe in the insulin hypothesis.

  8. #18
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artbuc View Post
    Is this true for everyone?
    Yes.

    Insulin Index

    I'm talking about an insulin spike. Lots of people around here are afraid of spiking their blood sugar because it requires insulin, and they think that will "wear out their pancreas."

    Everything generates insulin. Often protein generates more insulin than carbohydrate. Every whole food spikes blood sugar as well, though carbohydrate is going to come in well above protein in that regard as protein has a glucagon reaction to balance the insulin spike in the absence of carbohydrate.

    My recommendation is to eat carbohydrate in a 1 : 1 ratio with protein if you're sedentary and overweight - 1 gram of carbs for every gram of protein ingested. Otherwise, you'll be generating more glucagon than insulin, which keeps your blood sugar low and cortisol high. I'm not a big fan of being in gluconeogenesis for long period - here and there it's fine but if you're in it chronically, that means you are chronically elevating your stress hormones (cortisol and adrenaline mainly), which beats up your thyroid and adrenals over the years.

    I eat 1.5-2g of carbohydrate per gram of protein. I average around 150g of protein a day.

    Basically, Paleo will always be a low carbohydrate diet versus a standard American diet. Eat real food and don't worry so much about carb count but rather avoiding toxins - grains, legumes, vegetable oils, soy, artificial sweeteners, thickeners, chemical additives, colorings...you know, the nasty stuff on the packages no one can pronounce without a degree in chemistry. Eat what makes you feel best - if it's ribeye and avocado, eat that. If it's chicken and sweet potatoes, eat that. Experiment and don't be dogmatic. You may find yourself tolerating carbohydrate much better than you think when you're avoiding the toxic grain and legume carbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
    So the whole GI / GL thing is completely wrong?
    I find GI to be completely irrelevant. GL, not so much. White potatoes have a much higher GI than wheat pasta, but a fraction of the GL. You can eat a lot more carbohydrate from whole foods than the acellular carbohydrate found in grain flour. And it's non-toxic, too. Grain flour is nasty, nasty stuff.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-15-2012 at 10:00 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  9. #19
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    There's a reason there are high carb paleo dieters. They don't believe in the insulin hypothesis.
    I've always followed the theory that we get fat because we become 'insulin sensitive', caused by flooding the body with insulin, which in turn makes cells resistant to insulin. The way to become insulin sensitive is to decrease carbs, which cause glucose spikes and bring on insulin spikes. So measuring blood glucose is kind of dumb...

    If this is all not the case, what causes insulin resistance?

  10. #20
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    Whoa - here's another look:

    Protein increased insulin but had no effect on C-peptide or the insulin secretion rate, which suggests decreased hepatic insulin extraction or increased C-peptide clearance.”

    In other words, protein may cause increased insulin levels not by stimulating increased release of insulin by the pancreas, but by decreasing the rate at which the liver removes insulin from the blood.

    That might explain why eating protein after working out wouldn’t have a detrimental affect on the release of other hormones such as GH. The suppression of GH release might be associated with increased demand for insulin production/release, not to absolute blood levels of insulin. I’m just speculating here though. One thing’s for sure, biology is complicated.

    This would add a new wrinkle to Mark’s “It’s all about the insulin” philosophy, which might need to be amended to “it’s all about the release of insulin from the pancreas” or something like that.


    Info about the study:
    The hypoglycemic effect of fat and protein is... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    Read more: Insulin Index | Mark's Daily Apple

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