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Thread: Looking visibly aged now, more than expected. page 8

  1. #71
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    I'm not really convinced it's entirely diet/nutrition related. If you have been in nutritional Ketosis for a long while, it might be a contributing factor. Interesting discussion on this thread nonetheless. BTW I totally agree with the "eat more Primal carbs" advice.

    IMO what you think is premature aging is more likely due to situational stress and/or your night shift work.

    Maybe you just need a break, at least a temporary one from that giant machine you posted about recently. The one you (and most of us) are stuck inside.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I don't agree that all polyunsaturated fat is bad. I believe salmon oil to be very unhealthy, but I do not believe wild caught salmon to be healthy. Isolated PUFA oils may oxidize rapidly upon ingestion, but whole foods come paired with antioxidants that keep the animal or plant from aging rapidly and dying. I don't agree that salmon, walnuts and almonds are unhealthy, but I won't be ingesting any of those oils isolated.



    Something that Peat does not address is the ideal lipid profile of a human. What is it exactly? Does anyone know? We are not ruminants where fat should be saturated and monounsaturated with next to no PUFA in our tissue. We are more like pigs. We should carry a significant amount of PUFA and arachidonic acid. At least that's my opinion. Polyunsaturated fat makes cell membranes soft and permeable. Too much and your cells leak, but not enough and they become too stiff. Aren't omega 3 and omega 6 considered EFA's because when people were fed fully hydrogenated oils containing zero PUFA for a long period of time, their cell membranes became so stiff the people died? I don't believe we should have a very low PUFA diet. I believe that the studies are skewed because the sources of PUFA are usually awful - fish oil, soybean oil, grains, legumes, etc. If the studies only used wild caught salmon and raw, soaked, sprouted walnuts as a PUFA source, I think opinions would change.
    I think you'll find this to be an interesting read:

    Polyunsaturated Fats And Health | evilcyber.com

    It has tons of citations, and breaks down a lot of questions.
    nihil

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    This isn't an isolated post, though. Do a forum search for people that have thyroid issues, thinning hair/hair falling out, chills after eating, etc, that have been doing Primal for months or years that initially felt great then started to reverse their pgoress. It's pretty common.

    We know being in a chronic state of gluconeogenesis increases adrenaline, cortisol, serotonin and slows thyroid. We know that adrenaline, cortisol and serotonin are three of our greatest stress hormones. We also know that we cannot contract disease without stress - all disease is caused by inflammation and all inflammation is caused by stress, so no stress = no disease. Brief periods of stress = hormesis, which is very beneficial. Chronic periods of stress = inflammatory. If low carbohydrate diets increase stress hormones and stress hormones are degenerative, then longterm carbohydrate restriction can easily become degenerative. Again, look at the rapid aging of the Inuit.

    No one is saying that his diet is the sole reason why he's having issues, but it is certainly a contributing factor. No society is low carbohydrate by choice. Low carbohydrate societies exist solely because they have little option to eat carbohydrate.

    As to the anecdotal reports from your first paragraph its very hard to quantify, but I don't recall OP having ANY of those symptoms. He is reporting only a change in appearance accompanied by feeling "awesome" otherwise.

    Second paragraph are far too reaching of statements IMO. We don't "know" any of that. I know that gluconeogenesis is controlled by glucagon and does not require high levels of cortisol http://www.ketotic.org/2012/07/ketog...ss-part-i.html. I also know that a chronic reduced calorie diet (like many adopt to lose weight) very well can cause all the symptoms and stress that you attribute solely to gluconeogenisis. I know that there are far to many confounding factors for you to make such statements. Confounding factors like living in one of the harshest environments known to mankind like the Inuit do....and we would blame their aging simply on a lack of carbs?

    I don't think you can make a sound argument that it is a contributing factor to be honest. But, my opinion is go ahead and add some starches and healthy O3's.....but for God sakes get off the swing shift! That is the glaringly obvious thing to me.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-14-2012 at 03:48 PM.

  4. #74
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    I think it's just due to very low body fat, manifest in the face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    To be sure, what I have noticed is that most primal/paleo types -- like Mark and his wife, DeVany and his wife -- is that they look much younger than any other counterparts.

    Next to this, I always crack up at how people consider this to be a "high protein!" diet.

    I know that the RDA puts everyone at .8g per kg of bodyweight (total, not lean), but we know that the RDA is about *minimum* requirements, not "optimal" requirements. From there, they tell us that protein should make up 10-35% of our diet.

    The problem is, they don't explain how/why. So, here are a few "how/why" versions.

    Starting with their math, lets go. I weigh 58kgs (128 lbs). This means that I require a minimum of 46.4 grams of protein per day. That is 185.6 calories per day from protein.

    I currently eat an average of 1600 calories per day (calculated across a month). This means that 11% of my diet would be protein.

    If we do Mark's version (which I cannot find sourced on the net -- but I didn't look too hard), he recommends using .7-1g per lean body mass. Since I'm 128 lbs, and about 18% body fat (eyeball/pictures mostly, haven't calipered in a while), that means 105 lbs of lean body mass. If I go with the highest amount there -- 1g per -- I end up with 420 calories per day. Or, 26% of my daily intake.

    This is still within those RDA guidelines, no?

    But lets look again. Say I do the RDA, but I'm the "average sedentary woman" and according to various sources (like livestrong.com), the average sedentary woman needs 1800 calories a day. This means that using the RDA's minimum, only 10% of my calories are from protein. But if I'm an average moderately active woman, that caloric number goes up to 2000, and then my RDA protein amount is only 9% od the diet. So now it's too low!

    Now, lets do it using Mark's numbers. I'm now an average, sedentary, and 23% of my diet is protein. Still RDA approved! And as an average, moderately active? It's 21%. And that's if I'm using the highest number.

    How does it get to being 35%? Calorie restriction. If I am a restrictor and I need to get the RDA of 46 g per day (184 calories), and I eat only 1300 calories per day, then what? It's still RDA ok at 14%. If I used Mark's numbers, I'm still RDA ok at 32%!

    So to be completely honest, I have no idea what these folks are talking about about the diet being "too high!" in protein.

    Also, I think many people would be shocked to know what they eat. Even if they are eating the right amount of calories, I'm always surprized at how protein-freaked everyone is. When you mention something like vegetarianism, everyone goes 'but i NEED my PROTEIN!" well, it is entirely possible to get mark-levels of protein (420 cals per day) from vegetarian sources, in particular if you also include dairy and eggs. Granted, the vegan versions for protein are lower in the "inflammatory" elements of meats, but according to the site linked above -- X amount of meat equals the same as Y amount of veggie, and I'm just as apt to eat Y amount of veggie and not X amount of meat (i usually eat less than X).

    Which then means that if aging is due to the inflammatory element, then I can just as easily fall pray to it with veggies as I can with meat, depending upon the real amounts that I eat.

    Honestly, My average daily intake of protein is anywhere from 90-100g on average. At 1600 per day on average, this means that I'm sitting at 22% to 25% of my diet from protein. This follows Mark's guidelines, which is just about double (a little more/a little less) the RDA for me in terms of grams, but certainly not excessive in terms of caloric intake. In fact, it hits the middle of the RDA percentage-of-calories road.

    And, if I look at a previous poster's assrtion of "4 oz per meal" and estimate only 3 meals, we are looking at 7 g of protein per oz, or 28 g of protein. At three meals, that's 84 grams of protein -- or high above the RDA amount, but certainly close to Mark's assertions.

    If the poster's diet sits at the average person's 1800-2000 calorie diet, then it's 17-19% of the diet from fat. For me (at 1600) it would be 21% -- so again, not far off from where I already am. . . and both of us well within "RDAs."

    And, it's true. People think that we eat a lot of meat, btu we don't. It's just that we don't eat a lot of other things (grains/etc). Most of our plate is veggies and oils.

    I had 3 small eggs (they don't come in different sizes here, really, we just get regular sized eggs, which tend to be smaller than what we ate in the US), butter, and 3 cups of steamed veggies for breakfast, and for dinner, I'm probably going to have 4-6 oz of fish with a coconut-cream based thai curry sauce with three cups of veggies. I also had a tangelo and some fresh cherries earlier today. I mostly eat vegetables, seriously.
    I don't really look at percentages. The way I see it is, if you require 50g of protein a day but you're eating 150g, that's triple the amount you require.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    I don't really look at percentages. The way I see it is, if you require 50g of protein a day but you're eating 150g, that's triple the amount you require.
    Shoot, i cant find it now but there was a great blog post from Peter at hyperlipid i believe that broke down exactly how much protein people needed when eating maintenance calories and when gaining muscle. It came out ridiculously low like around 50g for a grown man to maintain as long as they were getting enough carbs so none was needed for conversion. And only like an extra couple of grams a day extra to gain mass.

    I truly believe this is true and think the protein hype for mass building or just in general is complete crap. Protein should never be used as energy and adding excessive amounts will definitely stress the body out.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    I don't really look at percentages. The way I see it is, if you require 50g of protein a day but you're eating 150g, that's triple the amount you require.
    but, RDA is minimum requirement, not optimal requirement. It's enough to keep you from sickness/death, but not enough to make you healthy/strong. right?

    what I have still been unable to find is where Mark's number comes from. I'm sure it's got a reference somewhere, but I don't know the science behind that number.

    it's a common number -- i've even seen some university nutritionists using it (.7-1g per lb lean body mass). which, btw, if I do that, it puts me *double* the RDA. So, what gives, kwim?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    I truly believe this is true and think the protein hype for mass building or just in general is complete crap. Protein should never be used as energy and adding excessive amounts will definitely stress the body out.
    Protein is the wild card...we know the brain requires 150g or so of glucose, which it can get from carbs or ketones. That's 450 calories a day dedicated to the brain. On a 2000kcal a day diet, that leaves 1500 kcal for other energy needs. If we knew exactly how much protein we needed for amino acids to repair and maintain cells, we could really dial in our "Calories In". I think most people eat too much protein and the excess gets converted to whatever and stored as fat.

  9. #79
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    I am all ears right now, and Choco and, for once, Derpa, are making sense.

    Well, I can't digest starch at the moment (tried too, and still peeing out of my butt today), but I'll definitely cut back on the massive protein intake. As long as my mood doesn't suffer, that is.

    I realize a total breakdown of my food is a good idea here.

    For protein, I typically start my daily cook-off with more or less a pound of pastured animal product. Beef heart, chicken heart, chicken liver, a few eggs (chicken or duck) , sometimes steak, pork or other odds and ends, etc. I cook it in either coconut oil or tallow (was using bacon fat from cheap bacon, but that really is a yuck now that I'm getting back into giving a darn). I also eat canned fish like mackerel and sardines straight out of the can, and oysters. NO PUFA oils in them, I spend the effort and real every label. Oddly, I often find clean mackerel at dollar stores and Big Lots. Just: Mackerel, water, salt. I know salt could open the gates and let them sneak some stuff in, but, come on, I don't want to get orthorexic, here!

    My main sources of fat are coconut milk (Aroy-D, just coconut and water), eggs, fatty meat like rib, chicken with skin, and previously bacon. I probably eat one or two avocados per day depending on how much they cost each week. And I cook in the aforementioned oils. I also put olive oil on my canned fish after draining the water out. Real olive oil, not fake.

    On top of that, I eat a piece of baking chocolate (or other dark chocolate), a cup of berries, a half-pot of coffee with the coconut milk in it, Sometimes green tea. Sometimes leafy greens, but not lately since they just don't digest.

    Typically some combination of the food listed, in a two-hour window daily, totaling 2500 to 3500 calories at the most.

    So I'll cut protein back to half a pound daily and work on replacing the missing calories with starch. Right? No?

    I IF daily, but will probably try eating small amounts of starch alone on an empty stomach when I get home from work to fix my gut. Maybe I'll just fast one day a week instead of every day. Thoughts?


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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    but, RDA is minimum requirement, not optimal requirement. It's enough to keep you from sickness/death, but not enough to make you healthy/strong. right?

    what I have still been unable to find is where Mark's number comes from. I'm sure it's got a reference somewhere, but I don't know the science behind that number.

    it's a common number -- i've even seen some university nutritionists using it (.7-1g per lb lean body mass). which, btw, if I do that, it puts me *double* the RDA. So, what gives, kwim?
    The minimum is even less than the .8 per kg of bodyweight. "Optimal" is very subjective from person to person. A person on a keto diet may require a bit more. You also have to take into account the protein in vegetables, some of which can be fairly high in protein. And even though they might be low in an amino acid it still balances out when you're eating a mixed diet.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 12-15-2012 at 03:35 AM.

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