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Thread: Glycogen is maintained and replenished during ketosis. page 8

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    I'm not convinced. If you're eating a reasonable amount of protein, then, even if you're in ketosis, there should still be a fair amount of gluconeogenesis. At the very least, it will be enough to fuel your activities if not absolutely stuff your muscles and liver with glucose.
    Gluconeogenesis, to my knowledge, is a steady slow ongoing metabolic process, and the body will ramp this up somehow in a calorie deficit AND when going extremely low on ingested fat, below 10 % of calories. It is more than unlikely that gluconeogenesis will provide sufficient glucose for activities like cycling, marathon, or whatever activity where you need a full tank of glycogen. All practical experience and science concludes with that. So, we will never ever see a winner of Tour de France on a ketonic diet or even a participant! That said: Training in ketosis may give a benefit in adapting the body and mind to low blood glucose and can be useful to deplete the body of glycogen before supercompensating with a carbload. But not eating carbs the last days before a race or ingesting carbs while racing is a ticket for disaster…
    Last edited by Gorbag; 12-12-2012 at 08:13 PM.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll
    For an athlete, this allows them to stay in ketosis fairly easily on a much higher protein diet (30-35% or even 40% for the highest level athletes). This may even be a necessary adaptation to making ketosis a sustainable state for athletes.
    That's the exact opposite of what Peter Attia said happened to him. He said his problem was TOO MUCH protein. How does that reconcile with what you just said?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Making such an argument for gluconeogenesis seems to run counter to the current trend of nutritional ketosis, which is all about reducing the protein. Regardless, the trained rats had higher glycogen stores through the training and replenished them better, but all the adaption in the world isn't anywhere near as effective as just eating some glucose.

    But as far as "adaptation" goes, I'd like to see a longer study like this with resistance training in humans to see just how much glycogen the body can produce in ketosis, where it goes (in the trained rats it went primarily to the liver), and how it varies among individuals. But I feel like the results would be more of the same, if not substantially worse.
    I'd love to see some longer term studies as well Tim. That would certainly be enlightening as to the efficiency (or lack thereof) for ketosis in athletes. I am not making the case for whether ketosis is good for athletes or not, just pointing out how it could be done.

    As for the whole "nutritional" ketosis argument, I would think that if you are in ketosis the majority of the time (regardless of the amount of gluconeogenesis going on or not going on), then you are in that state. The athletes would likely be burning up any glucose they produced in their athletic endevours and, the rest of the time (between games, matches, training, ect.) they would be running almost exclusively off of ketones. That seems pretty darn close to "nutritional" ketosis to me.

  4. #74
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    Drumroll, at the time I was doing Crossfit (including heavy lifting) at least 3 times a week plus other physical activity such as swimming, hiking, and cycling. I was definitely not sedentary, nor am I now (I'm working 531, lifting every other day, plus other activity).

    I could eat more protein if I was really hung up on the idea of being in ketosis, but since I have been comfortably losing fat with more carbs in my diet and have excellent bloodwork results (blood glucose, inflammatory markers, lipids, etc.), I see no reason to force down more protein when I can just add in some starches and fruit. I also don't think I could make myself eat enough to keep up with the level of protein intake that would require.

    Looking at your recommendation for protein intake to keep up, on my usual 2400kcal intake, I'd require approximately 160-210g of protein per day. I really can't imagine trying to eat that much meat and eggs (even with whey added it would be hard). Even if I go with a 2000kcal daily intake (my low end) I'm looking at a minimum of about 130g of protein daily. Again, on just whole foods, I'm not sure I could keep that up.

    I have no medical need to be in ketosis, and I like my fruit and potatoes and such, sometimes even rice. They cause me no issues. I can also do things like hike all day without needing to pound back the glucose and can fast comfortably, so obviously I'm still metabolically flexible and not overconsuming carbs either. So why go to all the frustration of trying to stay in ketosis all the time if it's not necessary?
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Gluconeogenesis, to my knowledge, is a steady slow ongoing metabolic process, and the body will ramp this up somehow in a calorie deficit AND when going extremely low on ingested fat, below 10 % of calories. It is more than unlikely that gluconeogenesis will provide sufficient glucose for activities like cycling, marathon, or whatever activity where you need a full tank of glycogen. All practical experience and science concludes with that. So, we will never ever see a winner of Tour de France on a ketonic diet or even a participant! That said: Training in ketosis may give a benefit in adapting the body and mind to low blood glucose and can be useful to deplete the body of glycogen before supercompensating with a carbload. But not eating carbs the last days before a race or ingesting carbs while racing is a ticket for disaster…
    I never claimed it was a good thing (or not) to be in ketosis for an athlete, I am just proposing how it could be done.

    However, I know there are marathoners, and even ultramarathoners out there who swear by being in ketosis because it gives them a more steady energy supply thought the race and then they will have a significant carb refeed at the conclusion of the race. If it works for them, I won't argue. To each their own.

    And, there may be types of athletic activities for which being in ketosis is the better state and types of athletics where it is not. I propose my own n=1 as an example. My lifting is almost always better when I'm in ketosis. I have more stable energy, a better clarity of mind (so I pay attention to my form better), and I seem to make most of my records when in ketosis.

    On the other hand, when doing any sort of steady state cardio, even the mild type, I do way better running off a small dose of carbs.

    So, it may also depend on the type of activity as to whether ketosis would be most appropriate or not.

  6. #76
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    Owly, I was not recommending any sort of dietary protocol or even, that you should try to be in ketosis. I was simply saying it could be done. If you've found something that works for you, great! Cheers to that.

    What I posted was merely some conjecture based on my current knowledge as to how ketosis for athletes might work.

  7. #77
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    A lot of the so-called low-carb athletes are not actually all that low carb if you look at their descriptions of their diets. They may be lower carb than the folks who load up at the pre-race pasta dinner, but they're still eating quite a bit of carbohydrate (look at some of the accounts of their race day fuelling).
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  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    That's the exact opposite of what Peter Attia said happened to him. He said his problem was TOO MUCH protein. How does that reconcile with what you just said?
    Even an athlete can conceivably have too much gluconeogenesis going on to stop ketosis. Simply put, if you don't burn through the glycogen you create (regardless of the source), you won't be in ketosis. Athletes will undoubtedly need more protein than sedentary individuals will, but even for them there is a limit to their need and they can still go over it.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owly View Post
    A lot of the so-called low-carb athletes are not actually all that low carb if you look at their descriptions of their diets. They may be lower carb than the folks who load up at the pre-race pasta dinner, but they're still eating quite a bit of carbohydrate (look at some of the accounts of their race day fuelling).
    Right on. But for those who wish to operate in a state of ketosis the carb levels are still low enough that they burn through it all very quickly and get into that ketogenic state regardless. This will be easier to do if you are a very high level athlete, of course.

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    Low intensity steady state type of activities without any anaerob work, or low rep weight training depending on ATP will not be to different in ketosis. Perhaps some activities may be even better, like shooting, golf or pool etc.! But try some high volume weightraining next time you goes to the gym in ketosis, short breaks, high reps and high sets. That's really sucks...

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