Glycogen is maintained and replenished during ketosis. page 4

[otzi]

Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health. Kids burn though a lot of glycogen too.

The studies on adult epileptics have not been going on for as many decades so there is not such a huge body of evidence yet but the exact same thing is happening so far in the studies done at Johns Hopkins.

Ketosis works out pretty well for fetuses and newborns, too.

[BestBetter]

Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health.

Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.

[Drumroll]

Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.

It doesn't mean it ISN'T either. I would caution against making blanket statements at least until more research has been conducted.

I won't make claims one way or the other, but I WILL say that we could stand to have more research on the efficiency and safety of ketogenic diets in the long term. I eagerly await more knowledge on this subject.

[Forgotmylastusername]

Actually, if only kids with epilepsy were put on this diet, then it shows that it's possible for kids with epilepsy to lead normal, physically active lives on a ketogenic diet...it's possible that the differences in their brains and bodies as a result of their epilepsy cause them to respond differently to a keto diet. It doesn't mean it's a healthy diet for people without epilepsy.

It's not without risks and adverse side effects for the kids on the diet. They have to be closely monitored and supplemented and even then not all kids can stay on the diet.

[jakey]

Obviously they were kids, not competitive bodybuilders. But what their example show is that it is very possible to lead a perfectly normal, physically active life as a growing youngster on a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects to health.

sorry, but isn't this basically a red herring in this thread? fact is that muscle glycogen is not well maintained or replenished on a ketogenic diet. i'm glad that it works for these kids, but that's not really what's being debated here.

[Timthetaco]

Immediately before the exercise, on completion of the exercise, and at 30 min intervals thereafter, six animals from each group ... were anaesthetized by a subcutaneous injection of pentobarbitol (dose = 4 mg/100 g body weight). As soon as each rat could be handled easily it was killed by decapitation, in a room away from the other animals.

Sure does suck to be a lab rat.

Lastly, it eases my concerns about keeping up a heavy lifting routine while in ketosis, which I plan to try out starting this week.

Why? These rats were doing light cardio for an hour. I don't think you can extrapolate the results of this study to heavy lifting. The researchers even state in the summary, "There was very little resynthesis of muscle glycogen recovery..."

Also, if I'm not reading incorrectly, the rats were only on a low carbohydrate diet for a week during their training before the training day. It seems this study says absolutely nothing about glycogen replenishment on a consistent ketogenic diet with frequent strength training. More than likely you'll crap out like most people who try. To each their own, though.

[Paleobird]

sorry, but isn't this basically a red herring in this thread? fact is that muscle glycogen is not well maintained or replenished on a ketogenic diet. i'm glad that it works for these kids, but that's not really what's being debated here.

I know it's not the central focus of the thread. I only brought it up because someone was contending that the only study subjects to ever have been in ketosis had all been rats.

The fact that growing kids who burn though glycogen like little furnaces can live very well on this diet is relevant to the discussion.

And bestbetter's point that a study on epileptics has no relevance outside of people with that condition is just plain false. There are no physiological differences in how the rest of the body works (yes, the brain wiring is different) between epileptics and non-epileptics. for example, my thyroid is not any different because I have epilepsy.

[Paleobird]

It's not without risks and adverse side effects for the kids on the diet. They have to be closely monitored and supplemented and even then not all kids can stay on the diet.

The only risk is if the kid's diet is not varied enough to provide a broad range of nutrients. It is difficult as a parent to impose this program on a child who doesn't understand what is happening and why they can't have candy bars like their friends. It is also difficult to get a kid to eat liver. As an adult it is very easy to stay with this program and get complete nutrition, no supplementation needed.

The more modern research is backing off of the extreme levels of fat required in some of the earlier versions of this program that you may have read about. Instead of 80/10/10 (f/p/c) they are now finding equally good results with 60/30/10.

[Artbuc]

The only risk is if the kid's diet is not varied enough to provide a broad range of nutrients. It is difficult as a parent to impose this program on a child who doesn't understand what is happening and why they can't have candy bars like their friends. It is also difficult to get a kid to eat liver. As an adult it is very easy to stay with this program and get complete nutrition, no supplementation needed.

The more modern research is backing off of the extreme levels of fat required in some of the earlier versions of this program that you may have read about. Instead of 80/10/10 (f/p/c) they are now finding equally good results with 60/30/10.

Paleo, is there some minimum level of carbs you try to eat daily? What would happen if you ate zero carbs for an extended period, say indefinitely? I think I am a gluconeogenesis machine easily capable of making more glucose than I need.

[otzi]

Sure does suck to be a lab rat.

How would you like to be these lab rats? How our nerves regulate insulin secretion

Researchers at Karolinska Institutet in Sweden have managed to graft beta cells into the eyes of mice in order to study them in a living organism over a prolonged period of time. As a result, the group and a team of colleagues from the University of Miami have gained detailed knowledge of how the autonomic nervous system regulates beta-cell insulin secretion.