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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Vitamin e only helps stop the chain of peroxidation, it does not displace every harmful effect of PUFA.
    I read the Peat article and don't see a single instance of PUFA "harmful effect" from eating a whole food such as almonds as part of the diet. Please cite me something...anything that alludes to such damage. Preferably from this century and not in some genetically altered animal model, of course if thats all you got you can list it I suppose.

    I'm not saying that you should make PUFA your primary fat source. I agree that it should be saturated/monosaturated then PUFA. But, I have read some Peat people attempting to eat as close to 0 PUFA as they can and eliminating healthy foods to do so in some biochemically warped view that it will make them superhuman.

    So back to the original proposition. Find me any paper that quantifies PUFA damage from a whole food such as almonds. I'm really curious now. Oh, one other stipulation...no data on some frankenoils that are not Primal anyhow.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012 at 08:34 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post

    Also, I do agree that the typical primal eater should have lower omega-6 (well, PUFAs in general) levels over SAD, vegetarian, and even vegan eaters. This is why including a handful of nuts won't send you into a state of extreme oxidative stress.

    So, I do agree with the "chill out" message.
    Im not going to speak for others but my pufa level was probably 5 times what it was when i just ate how i wanted. Lots of nuts, avacados, nut butters, fatty meats (bacon!), 5--0g of fish oils, 5 eggs a day, etc. that adds up to a hell of a lot of pufa and the main reason why i felt ao horrible on a paleo diet. People forget that AA is highly inflammitory as well so pufa is even more harmful.

    I think some people tend to envision SAD as all fast food and deep fried twinkies but i have pictures of just eating normal and of when i was heavy in paleo/primal and i look (and felt) so much better on my SAD diet. (Bread, dairy, fruit, little meat, beans, sugar).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Im not going to speak for others but my pufa level was probably 5 times what it was when i just ate how i wanted. Lots of nuts, avacados, nut butters, fatty meats (bacon!), 5--0g of fish oils, 5 eggs a day, etc. that adds up to a hell of a lot of pufa and the main reason why i felt ao horrible on a paleo diet. People forget that AA is highly inflammitory as well so pufa is even more harmful.
    No, no, no....thats the point. In the context of real whole foods these come with the constituents that negate any harmful effect and to the contrary leads to a very anti-inflammatory diet. The paleo diet reduces O6 by eliminating the seed oils and other industrial crap that you cook in and is added to almost every pre-packaged food on your grocery shelf. These foods contain rancid oxidized O6. Quite different from an avacado which has various factors that reduce oxidation of its PUFA and provides the body with vitamins that aid in processing without inflammatory effect. In the context of the paleo diet...assuming your eating the "good stuff (grass fed/patrured)" along with eggs and some seafood your PUFA levels come out much more balanced and anti-inflammatory.

    When you eat right (paleo)...then your going to get most your fat from saturated and monosaturated forms and the least from PUFA, but the ratio and total amount of PUFA and the source allows for better utilization and lower inflammation.

    In your case you need not of added fish oils and you probably could get rid of or at least make sure of proper storage of your nut butters. That all comes along with knowing how to buy quality product and safe storage for consumption. I don't know how much of your diet those made up. Stick to fatty meat, real fish, avacados, and pastured eggs and the like. Heck bacon has many of the same fatty acid makeup that everyone just LOVES olive oil for.

    But please, eat what you like. Heck your definitely in the majority if your eating all that stuff you list (bread, sugar, beans....). We are but a small percent of America eating this way.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012 at 09:02 AM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    No, no, no....thats the point. In the context of real whole foods these come with the constituents that negate any harmful effect and to the contrary leads to a very anti-inflammatory diet. The paleo diet reduces O6 by eliminating the seed oils and other industrial crap that you cook in and is added to almost every pre-packaged food on your grocery shelf. These foods contain rancid oxidized O6. Quite different from an avacado which has various factors that reduce oxidation of its PUFA and provides the body with vitamins that aid in processing without inflammatory effect. In the context of the paleo diet...assuming your eating the "good stuff (grass fed/patrured)" along with eggs and some seafood your PUFA levels come out much more balanced and anti-inflammatory.

    When you eat right (paleo)...then your going to get most your fat from saturated and monosaturated forms and the least from PUFA, but the ratio and total amount of PUFA and the source allows for better utilization and lower inflammation.

    In your case you need not of added fish oils and you probably could get rid of or at least make sure of proper storage of your nut butters. That all comes along with knowing how to buy quality product and safe storage for consumption. I don't know how much of your diet those made up. Stick to fatty meat, real fish, avacados, and pastured eggs and the like. Heck bacon has many of the same fatty acid makeup that everyone just LOVES olive oil for.

    But please, eat what you like. Heck your definitely in the majority if your eating all that stuff you list (bread, sugar, beans....). We are but a small percent of America eating this way.

    Im not going to argue about mechanisms for oxidation and inflammation. All im saying that after tril and error i can pinpoint my severe (as in barely walk some days and never being able to run) to excess meat and pufa consumption.

    And yes, all my food was organic, grassfed, free range. I was eating exactly how Robb Wolf and Cordain recommend at the time.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Im not going to argue about mechanisms for oxidation and inflammation. All im saying that after tril and error i can pinpoint my severe (as in barely walk some days and never being able to run) to excess meat and pufa consumption.

    And yes, all my food was organic, grassfed, free range. I was eating exactly how Robb Wolf and Cordain recommend at the time.
    Sorry to hear that. I'm not going to second guess your efforts. Good luck.

  6. #46
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    Thanks, i have since figured it out.

    I know peat thinks that liberating FFA on a weightloss diet also contributes to the problem. Since most on a paleo diet are losing weight, i wonder how much that coulf factor in.

    Anyway, interesting topic.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Thanks, i have since figured it out.

    I know peat thinks that liberating FFA on a weightloss diet also contributes to the problem. Since most on a paleo diet are losing weight, i wonder how much that coulf factor in.

    Anyway, interesting topic.
    That is actually quit interesting since fats liberated very well could be some of the more problematic types from several months ago up to two years ago. I've heard story of up to two years, but I have no science to cite to back up any estimates. Just some blurbs I've read.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I read the Peat article and don't see a single instance of PUFA "harmful effect" from eating a whole food such as almonds as part of the diet. Please cite me something...anything that alludes to such damage. Preferably from this century and not in some genetically altered animal model, of course if thats all you got you can list it I suppose.

    I'm not saying that you should make PUFA your primary fat source. I agree that it should be saturated/monosaturated then PUFA. But, I have read some Peat people attempting to eat as close to 0 PUFA as they can and eliminating healthy foods to do so in some biochemically warped view that it will make them superhuman.

    So back to the original proposition. Find me any paper that quantifies PUFA damage from a whole food such as almonds. I'm really curious now. Oh, one other stipulation...no data on some frankenoils that are not Primal anyhow.
    "Whole foods" don't just magically negate polyunsaturated fats, I seriously don't understand what you're expecting. You're not finding anything because you're searching for something asinine. It's well documented already the detrimental effect on human health that polyunsaturated fatty acids have.

    Rancidity of seed oils is not even relevant to the topic, it's something else entirely. Just because it's not a seed oil, doesn't mean it changes mechanisms. It increases oxidative stress because it contains two or more double bonds between carbon atoms. Double bonds extremely susceptible to oxidation. When oxidized, it attracts oxygen causing binding and turning it into a peroxyl radical. Which is where the harmful effects on cellular membrane, dna, etc come in play.

    The only thing vitamin e helps with is stopping the random oxidation(peroxidation), which causes tissue damaging free radicals. Controlled oxidation still takes place, as I described above.

    Your "whole food" nuts, have enzyme inhibitors and anti-nutrients anyway.
    nihil

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    "Whole foods" don't just magically negate polyunsaturated fats.....
    No cites or scientific studies? Ok, cool. Just making sure.

    Two problems. One: you state PUFA without discussing any difference because you find even O3 is detrimental. Two: you have yet to quantify what amount is toxic and show that it remains so when you get that much from say almonds. The dose makes the poison right? So what dose of PUFA is the toxic load and do you have any studies to back that up?

    There are plenty of populations living on tons of fish to ripe old ages. Unless Peat busts the barrier and lives past 120, I'm gonna suppose that fish and nuts are fine as a portion of our diet. Which is actually part of my issue with Peats work. He ignores traditional or evolutionary frame work completely relying only on a reductionistic biochemical model that is ....incomplete.... is probably the best word for it. Otherwise though I like the guy. Obviously he's a smart fella in his field. I don't see him out pimping his diet and saying its the holy grail. Just his followers do that part.

    Meh, again you've dragged a thread off topic. I'm done here unless you have some relevant studies about perhaps people that introduce nuts or fish to their diets and suffer ill effect.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 12-06-2012 at 06:15 PM.

  10. #50
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    Something tells me you don't have a decent grasp of biochemistry, and I don't need a citation for that.

    You can, however, tell me exactly what you think is in an almond that will negate the oxidation of pufa. I'd honestly like to know.
    nihil

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