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Thread: The Super Secret Potato Project page 39

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I love this:"A study by Higgins et al, published in October 2004 issue of Nutrition and Metabolism showed that replacing 5.4% of the carbohydrate content of a meal with resistant starch [cold potatoes] increased fat oxidation by 23% in a sample of 12 study subjects. This increase is apparantly sustained throughout the day, even if only meal contains RS [cold potatoes]and the increased fat oxidation is sustained if one keeps eating RS [cold potatoes] on a daily basis. It appears that the RS [cold potatoes]changes the order in which the body burns food. Usually carbohydrates are used first, but when RS [cold potatoes]is present, dietary fat is oxidised first into energy before it has a chance to be stored as body fat. This study suggests that including foods high in RS [cold potatoes] in your daily diet may help with weight management."* I added the words [cold potatoes]
    I didnt see that earlier. Sounds fantastic! Thanks!
    65lbs gone and counting!!

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  2. #382
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    Yes, it IS xmas, and sugar abounds!

    I don't know about the almond flour but you could try it.

    I made almond flour banana bread once and all that almond flour
    set my MOUTH on fire.

    But I bet it would compliment the peanut butter, so give it a whirl and report
    back STAT.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I love this:

    "A study by Higgins et al, published in October 2004 issue of Nutrition and Metabolism showed that replacing 5.4% of the carbohydrate content of a meal with resistant starch [cold potatoes] increased fat oxidation by 23% in a sample of 12 study subjects. This increase is apparantely sustained throughout the day, even if only meal contains RS [cold potatoes]and the increased fat oxidation is sustained if one keeps eating RS [cold potatoes] on a daily basis. It appears that the RS [cold potatoes]changes the order in which the body burns food. Usually carbohydrates are used first, but when RS [cold potatoes]is present, dietary fat is oxidised first into energy before it has a chance to be stored as body fat. This study suggests that including foods high in RS [cold potatoes] in your daily diet may help with weight management."

    * I added the words [cold potatoes]
    Data is fairly easy, the devil comes in when one attempts to bend the data to suit one's desired results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resistant starch consumption promotes lipid oxidation, Higgins et al.
    Resistant starch (RS) is any starch that is not digested in the small intestine but passes to the large bowel for fermentation [1]. Retrograded amylose (a linear polymer of glucose residues linked by α(1→4) bonds; RS1), such as cooked and cooled starchy foods like pasta salad, and native starch granules (RS2), such as those found in high-amylose maize starch and bananas, are the major components of dietary RS. Calories from RS that are undigested in the small intestine can be salvaged by fermentation to short-chain fatty acids (SCFA; acetate, butyrate, proprionate) by the microflora of the large bowel.
    Allow me to interpret :

    1. Humans cannot digest resistant starch
    2. Bacteria can digest resistant starch
    3. Bacteria make short chain fatty acids out of starch
    4. Humans absorb these fatty acids


    So, effectively, eating a diet high in resistant starch is tantamount to eating a diet high in short chain fatty acids.

    If you were to ingest short chain fatty acids directly, without having to go through intestinal fermentation of RS, what would you expect to happen? Well, it is widely know that metabolic lipid utilization is governed by both the degree of saturation and the length of the fatty acids. Short chain saturated acids ( e.g. 4 carbon butyric acid ) are preferentially oxidized, whereas long chain saturates ( e.g. 16 carbon palmitic acid ) are stored.

    Accordingly, as plasma short chain fatty acid concentrations increase, their oxidation should increase based simply on their increased availability, irrespective of whether one was ingesting them directly or having bacteria ferment resistant starch on one's behalf. However, this increased oxidation of short chain FAs ( fatty acids ) would also displace oxidation of the longer chained fatty acids such as palmitic acid, which is the dominant form that is stored in adipose tissue. What happens to the displaced palmitic acid? It is re-esterified as triglycerides in adipose tissue, i.e. it is reabsorbed by fat tissue.

    What this means, then, is that you can have a seemingly paradoxical situation where you are experiencing both increased fat oxidation, and increased fat deposition. It is not enough to focus on just fat oxidation.

    I'm also unsure of Otzi's original quote, but they are really stretching the results obtained to make them seem more than what was actually found:


    Quote Originally Posted by Resistant starch consumption promotes lipid oxidation, Higgins et al.
    This increase in fat oxidation was accompanied by a concomitant decrease in carbohydrate oxidation and fat storage, although these parameters did not reach statistical significance. Further, the magnitude of the increase in fat oxidation indicates that this effect is biologically relevant and could be important for preventing fat accumulation in the long term by effecting total fat balance under chronic feeding conditions. Finally, this study revealed that there may be a maximal effect of RS addition to the diet and that the addition of RS over this threshold confers no metabolic benefit or change from a 0% RS meal.
    The researchers found that increased fat oxidation did _not_ result in a statistically significant change in carbohydrate oxidation or fat storage. See the bit above where I discuss short chain FAs displacing oxidation of the longer chains resulting in no change in fat deposition. The researchers in their conclusion directly contradict this claim from Otzi's source:

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    It appears that the RS [cold potatoes]changes the order in which the body burns food. Usually carbohydrates are used first, but when RS [cold potatoes]is present, dietary fat is oxidised first into energy before it has a chance to be stored as body fat.
    The study also seems to indicate that there is a limit to the observed "benefit". Well, of course there is, once you start exceeding your caloric requirements, whether that excess is in the form of RS, fats, or protein ... guess what happens to your waistline?

    -PK
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  4. #384
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    This is one of the most positive threads on this forum ... I've enjoyed catching up on your posts, otzi, insearchofabs and gopintos, in particular. Grok on potatophiles.
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    Data is fairly easy, the devil comes in when one attempts to bend the data to suit one's desired results.
    -PK
    You pretty much summed it up! Thanks for the distillation. In regards to the resistant starches, though, there seems to be a bit more going on than fat/carb/calories, it's the gut flora interactions in the colon that I think yield the biggest benefits. The fact that a huge colony of bacteria are living in your gut and eating the things you eat before you get a chance to digest it, in fact changing 'carbs' to 'fats', I just find totally remarkable.

    I also found it amazing that the starches in potatoes and rice are changed by cooking and cooling.

    Whether this amounts to a hill of beans...errr...potatoes is another story.

  6. #386
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    The WHERE matters in this discussion. Ingested butyric acid in the form of butter will be digested and absorbed in the small intestine, similar to all other fats eaten by the oral route. The interesting factor here is that resistant starch survives into the large intestine, where the bacteria live, and where dietary fats normally would never reach in a normally digesting gut. So with the production of butyric acid in the large bowel, you are introducing a presumably healthful, but not naturally present chemical constituent. Actually, given our paleolithic food ancestry, it's likely that large bowel butyric acid was very normal for our ancestors and is just sadly lacking in our diets today. So we are just now discovering a way to re-supply a nutrient that we weren't even aware was deficient before!

  7. #387
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    Also, the dietary fiber found in broccoli and other vegetables is not the same as resistant starch. I was reading that there are four main types of carbs: Sugars, starches, dietary fiber, and resistant starch. All do different things. There is a movement in the nutritional world to begin listing the RS value of foods on labels. They have been adding RS to certain foods for years, one is called Hi-Maize Hi-maize USA Home Page .

    I can't say I like the idea of adding a man-made RS to anything I eat, especially of non-primal corn, but it shows the value of RS.

    Let's say the RS idea is total BS. Eating potatoes is still a healthy way to get starch into your diet.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    The WHERE matters in this discussion.
    Indeed it is. It should be always kept in mind that the entire digestive tract is _outside_ the body. It is a fully enclosed portion of the outside, to be sure, but it is no more inside you than a coin around which you had cupped your hands around on the top and bottom enclosing it fully could be said to be inside your body. This is why you can have several pounds of bacteria in that enclosed space without any undue problems. If we were to transport that exact same bacteria to actually be within you, that would represent a grave life threatening medical condition known as sepsis.

    All of this means that your body needs a mechanism by which to transport things from the outside to the inside. Those details, while interesting, are not quite useful to us here, what we really need to know is where "the inside" eventually winds up being. Absorption of nutrients generally involves the circulatory system, so, unsurprisingly, that what does the bulk of the work for us:



    As the diagram clearly shows, any blood soluble nutrients are always delivered to the liver first via the circulatory system. So, to answer the WHERE question, the answer is always the hepatic portal vein, which means that the distinction between large or small intestine is a distinction without a difference.

    Now, unlike long chain fatty acids that are absorbed by the lymphatic system, short to medium chain fatty acids are blood soluble so off to the liver they go via the portal vein. It is critically important to keep in mind that we are always talking about specific chemical structures such as butyric acid:



    The thing that makes butyric acid butric acid is the precise combination of elements and bonds that comprise it. You cannot change any of that and still call the result butyric acid.

    Accordingly, butyric acid in the blood stream is anonymous and fungible: its structure has not changed nor can it possibly change in any meaningful way in order to convey information to the liver as to its source. Therefore, there is no difference whatsoever in how butyric acid is metabolized once it has been absorbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    Ingested butyric acid in the form of butter will be digested and absorbed in the small intestine, similar to all other fats eaten by the oral route. The interesting factor here is that resistant starch survives into the large intestine, where the bacteria live, and where dietary fats normally would never reach in a normally digesting gut. So with the production of butyric acid in the large bowel, you are introducing a presumably healthful, but not naturally present chemical constituent.
    What is your evidence for that last claim? If you are basing the presumed health benefits solely on the benefit of butyric acid, then I won't argue against you, because I agree that butyric acid is beneficial. However, you seem to be arguing that the benefit is conferred from the location of absorption of the butyric acid, the large intestine, which I maintain is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by marthat View Post
    Actually, given our paleolithic food ancestry, it's likely that large bowel butyric acid was very normal for our ancestors and is just sadly lacking in our diets today. So we are just now discovering a way to re-supply a nutrient that we weren't even aware was deficient before!
    That is pure speculation on your part. To get resistant starch from potatoes or pasta, for instance, you need to both heat then cool the source starch for cross linking across molecules to occur, thereby resulting in the starch becoming resistant to digestion. So, you are postulating that our paleolithic ancestors ate large quantities of cold pasta salad? But again, even if they preferred their fusili cold, you have not provided any evidence to support the importance of the location of absorprtion.

    -PK
    Last edited by pklopp; 12-21-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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  9. #389
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    Really awesome explanation, and I'm loving exploring this aspect!

    you need to both heat then cool the source starch for cross linking across molecules to occur, thereby resulting in the starch becoming resistant to digestion. So, you are postulating that our paleolithic ancestors ate large quantities of cold pasta salad? -pklopp
    Remember, there are 4 types of RS. RS2 is found in raw starchy tubers--which our ancestors most certainly ate!

    RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains

    RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn

    RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. The process of cooking out the starch and cooling it is called retrogradation.

    RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature. -wikipedia
    The function of buyrate in the colon is to feed the cells in the colon and other colonic functions. It may have a different job in the bloodstream, or may just be treated like any old fat, but in the colon it has a special purpose:

    Butyrates are important as food for cells lining the mammalian colon (colonocytes). Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die.[1] Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production,and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer.[2]

    Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer. One mechanism underlying butyrate function in suppression of colonic inflammation is inhibition of the IFN-γ/STAT1 signaling pathways at least partially through acting as a histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitor. While transient IFN-γ signaling is generally associated with normal host immune response, chronic IFN-γ signaling is often associated with chronic inflammation. It has been shown that Butyrate inhibits activity of HDAC1 that is bound to the Fas gene promoter in T cells, resulting in hyperacetylation of the Fas promoter and up-regulation of Fas receptor on the T cell surface.[3] It is thus suggested that Butyrate enhances apoptosis of T cells in the colonic tissue and thereby eliminates the source of inflammation (IFN-γ production).[4 - wikipedia

  10. #390
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    Yeah, that's what I was getting at too. The local effect of butyric acid on the large bowel, an area that wouldn't normally be exposed to dietary fats d/t the digestive process further up the intestine.

    And I was thinking of raw tubers more than pasta salad... Not picking any fights, just didn't see any reference to the local effect elsewhere.

    I have a huge respect for those who have the passion and the time and the understanding to research and present this type of indepth information for the rest of us. Thanks for your passion, pklopp!

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