Dentinal Fluid Transport discussion page

[Denver Dave]

I would like to start a discussion of Dentinal Fluid Transport or flow which I expect will be mostly about nutrition which is why I placed in this in the nutrition section. It would be great, but not necessary that participants are familiar with the book "Dentinal Fluid Transport" condensed and edited by Clyde Roggenkamp, DDS, MSD.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, the idea is that there is a fluid that can flow inside the tooth to outside, ideally, and sometimes to our detriment the flow may be outside in which effects the health of each tooth. Remineralization is a big part.

Here is a reference:

Amazon.com: Dentinal Fluid Transport (9781594100086): Clyde Roggenkamp: Books

Dentinal Tubular Flow and Effective Caries Treatment

http://www.dr-jacques-imbeau.com/dentalcaries.html

[otzi]

Hey DD, Looks like you really want to talk about teeth! I have read some about the pressure in the teeth. If I remember, the normal/ideal condition is for the pressure to be outward, but something goes wrong causing inward pressure, leading to cavities...am I close?

My interest in teeth was sparked a few summers ago when I saw some old Indian skulls. The teeth were worn down to nubbins, but there was no sign of cavities or dental problems and the teeth were all perfectly straight and aligned perfectly. I've never seen a modern American with teeth like these guys had!

Anyway, I was born with the teeth I got, so I started looking how to keep them healthy. I had like 10 fillings when I was a teen, and only 1 or 2 in the last 30 years. The dentist kept telling me my gums were receding and I had 'deep pockets' in the gum line. The deeper the pockets, the worse your health--there seems to be a direct correlation with gum disease and hs-crp, a marker of inflammation, and heart disease (no cites).

Anyway, I took up oil pulling with sesame oil just over a year ago, and all the 'deep pockets' I had are gone, my gums are healthy, and my dentist and oral hygenist are now oil-pullers and they tell everyone about it. It is a bit of a pain, but I worked it into my life...every night after work, I take a little swig of sesame oil and swish on it for 20 minutes while I'm getting changed and feeding the critters. Then I spit it out and brush with water. I brush w/regular toothpaste in the mornings.

Not sure if this is what you were wanting to hear, but thought I'd open a dialog with you anyway.

Welcome to our weird little family!

[Denver Dave]

Thanks for the reply. Quite a few years ago, the dentist told me that I shouldn't have an issue with cavities, but I should watch out for gums, which I gather is a common problem. I did not want to start with the suggested treatment which was some kind of surgery and antibiotic insertion into the pockets. I had good luck with an echinacea - golden seal mixture which in a little water for swishing tastes pretty much like one would think a thistle would taste like.

Glad you had good luck with oil pulling - what type of oil did you use?

- - - - -
Yes, my current interest is on the enamel, which much to my surprise seems to be an issue and we don't know why. Thus the interest in outside to inside and the inside to outside. The book "Dentinal Fluid Transport" is mostly about various studies done with rats and the effect of nutrition on their teeth. For some of the most interesting studies it is hard to figure out how to apply to people. For example:

Sugar - actually this one is pretty easy - don't eat as much sugar. What surprised me was that the cavities occurred whether the sugar passed over the teeth or was injected bypassing the teeth. Several articles, including #3

Milk - article #44 - Soy milk and cow's mik groups developed similar numbers to those on a high sugar diet (may have to rethink my grass-fed milk strategy). "... The chocolate milk group was significantly worse.

Article 70 - by far the best was Carbamyl Phosphate combined with 2 % eggshell meal and a 1/4 dose of trace elements. What I found fascinating is that when the trace element was doubled to a 1/2 dose the the results were quite a bit worse (don't over do it on the trace elements - but why) Also what the heck is carbamyl phosphate and where do we get it. For eggshell meal, can't seem to find that either- not sure if we grind up some organic eggshells ???? Bone meal did not seem to be as good. What I found interesting was the straight Purina rat chow control group did extremely well, almost as well as the above combination. Wonder what is in that rat chow.

The book seemed convinced that the effect of nutrition on dentinal fluid was the reason for the differences. Didn't find vitamin K2, fermented cod liver oil, high vitamin raw butter or grass-fed milk in the studies but I might have missed something - 100 studies are listed in the book - info is good, but not the most exciting reading.

[Denver Dave]

I've been taking Jarrow K2 and D3 for a month and I'm not unhappy with the results - maybe my enamel is a little better, but subjective. Oddly, my fingernails also seem a little smother with less ridges. However, today, I switched for a month to the fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin capsules and I have a month's supply, so we'll see what happens.

Any others have experience with the above?

[vb66]

I have lousy teeth too so thanks for starting this thread. Fruit is the worst for me as far as making my teeth extremely sensitive. My enamel is fading as well. I've been playing around with oil pulling, but not long enough to notice any results. I wish I had access to fermented cod liver oil and butter oil but we don't up in Canada.

Keep us updated!

[Denver Dave]

You should be able to buy from the Green Pasture website:
Butter/Cod Liver Blend - Green Pasture

or various other websites like Amazon.com . I've not found any stores that carry the fermented cod liver oil, butter blend.

Here is a good information resource:
Cod Liver Oil Basics and Recommendations - Weston A Price Foundation

I bought my bottle of capsules at the local Denver Weston A. Price chapter meeting and I think I saved a few bucks and there are chapters in many countries, including your country, Canada:
Find a Local Chapter-International - Weston A Price Foundation

Since I just started taking the fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin butter, I don't have an opinion on how it works. If I like it, I might try the gel to save money, but I didn't start there because I wasn't sure I could get the stuff down for my first test.

Confusing what I should take the capsules with. Bottle says can be taken with a small amount of food - I'm not sure what this means. Does this mean we can if we want? Should be taken with food - maybe any amount of food or only a small amount? Can we take without food? I know the Jarrow K2 and D3, I think, should be taken with some fat food, but not sure about the cod liver oil.

Thanks for answering the post - I'd really like to learn what luck others have. Card to keep all the variables constant with just one person - for example, I've switched to grass-fed milk.

[arevinotion]

yeah,I switched for a month to the fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin capsules and I have a month's supply

[otzi]

I have lousy teeth too so thanks for starting this thread. Fruit is the worst for me as far as making my teeth extremely sensitive. My enamel is fading as well. I've been playing around with oil pulling, but not long enough to notice any results. I wish I had access to fermented cod liver oil and butter oil but we don't up in Canada.

Keep us updated!

I've been hardcore oil pulling for 18mo now. Prior to starting, every 6 mo the dentist would comment on my 'deep pockets' saying they were an indicator of bad things to come, oral and body health-wise. Switching to Primal made no difference. The hygienist always remarked that I had stubborn plaque and lots of staining and my gums bled easily. I dreaded these 6 mo appointments. They were painful on my gums, the cold water and air made my sensitive teeth scream! I broke a tooth that had a 25 year old filling in half, got a huge crown, and that tooth hurt and was very sensitive for years.

Started oil pulling nightly for 20 minutes with Orchid brand sesame oil. Did this for 6 months, When I went to the dentist, the hygienist asked me if I had recently had a cleaning elsewhere. She said I had no staining and the plaque/tartar that was there came off super easy. The air and water was less painful. Dentist was amazed, too. Said my teeth and gums looked outstanding.

Concerning those 'deep pockets'. Every time I went in, they made a chart of my mouth with the depth of each pocket greater than 3mm. I had about 22 pockets greater than 3mm. Deepest was 8mm. After 6 months of oil pulling, I only had 10 pockets deeper than 3mm. All of the 3' and 4's were now less than 2mm. The 8mm was now 5mm and the rest were 3's and 4's.

Flashforward 6 months...6 more months of sesame oil pulling. Teeth were amazingly clean, all pockets were less than 3 except for the one that went from 8mm to 5mm. It was still a 5, but dentist said it was my back molar and sometimes these are deeper naturally. All the rest were non-existent. Dentist showed me my pocket chart from 2 years ago, covered in red with bunches of teeth circled. He called these his 'bank account', teeth that would soon need expensive work. He then showed my my recent chart...one pocket in red, not circled.

Flashforward to present...I spent the last 6 months oil pulling with Spectrum brand organic sunflower oil. Went to dentist last week. Hygienist was like, "You must have stopped oil pulling!" I had tons of staining, hard to remove plaque and tartar and "redness around gum line" . I still only have the one pocket that is still at 5mm. Dentist said everything else looked great.

My oil pulling regimen is to swish a small swig of sesame oil around in my mouth for 20 minutes prior to supper. The taste of sesame oil is a bit strong, but you get used to it,

I am a longtime taker of Vit D and K2. I was taking these before starting oil pulling.

Sorry to turn this thread into an oil pulling one..

[MouthDR]

The deep pockets people are referring to are the space found between your tooth and gums. That "pocket" should only be a maximum of 3mm and any deeper means that you have either (a) swollen and infected gums or (b) bone loss under the gums.

The idea of fluid flowing in and out of the tooth is not new, and not really an issue. More that anything, it's believed the be the best explanation for sensitivity when you have something hot or cold. But it doesn't explain all sensitivity (ie: some people are sensitive to toothpaste whether cold or not) so there must be a further underlying mechanism. But to suggest that it's related to caries, is doubtful in my opinion. Enamel isn't porous, dentine is. And most caries (apart from root caries in the elderly) starts in and on the enamel.

I am not trying to offend anyone with this following statement, but there is simply no such thing as having "bad teeth." No one does. You may have misaligned teeth, but your susceptibility to caries is equal across the board (again, unless you have some underlying medical condition like Sjogrens). I'll make this clear because I find that most dentists and oral surgeons are vague with it: ALL dental cavities (caries), ALL of them, are caused by your diet and oral hygiene. So, if you were to eat a very low carbohydrate diet, your odds of developing caries is quite low. Regardless of your brushing habits. If you eat moderate carbs, but brush frequently and brush well (that means actually brushing all surfaces, and using floss - you'd be surprised how many areas you miss when brushing and how many areas you brush multiple times), especially after carbs, you are almost guaranteed to be caries free. The reality is that caries (cavities) are caused by bacteria that need carbohydrate to survive, and to produce the acid that eats the enamel. Get rid of the carbs, or the bacteria, or both, and no cavities.

[MouthDR]

I just re-read my post above and saw a curious connection to paleo and oral health. One poster mentioned seeing Native American skulls with no caries, but severe attrition. I think that is a clear indication that paleo/ancient/past societies consumed rather low carbohydrate diets, because they clearly were not using toothbrushes and toothpaste as we do today. Had they been consuming higher carbohydrate diets, they would have had clear evidence of caries. And that would be a problem.

Up until the late 19th century, oral infections (caries leading to spreading infection) were the number one causes of death in the hospital setting. Think about that for a minute. Getting a cavity could kill you! There was no form of dentistry, no treatment, and definitely no antibiotics.

I would argue that their diets were quite high in animal flesh, fish, and fats, and rather low in carbohydrate. Guess the paleo diet is onto something! LOL