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Thread: Any primal non-christians here? page 9

  1. #81
    Scott F's Avatar
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    If Dawkins is correct humans are merely a collection of memes and "being" is an illusion. Like the philosopher/theologian said in the BBC Did Darwin Kill God I linked to, Dawkins' memes undermines his own reasoning
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Mostly rich people who have never needed faith, so probably MOST.

    Maybe she's trying to force you into believing so her family will be more accepting. Tell her "No." She should take you as you are, as she always has.

    I believe in Jesus, but I DON'T watch Fox News or vote republican. I believe in the Jesus who shared wealth and healed the hurting - you know, the one in the Bible! The modern church makes me ashamed of the Gospel. Greedy jerks with oppressive mentalities and political agendas half the time. I say I'm a Christian and instantly you (might) assume a lot of things. But I've been through enough hard times to see what it is. People are real. Everybody has the right to speak, and even if I think Jesus is the only way to heaven, I get it - you don't, and that's fine. We're grown-ups, here. I believe God made evolution, and guided it however he wanted whenever he wanted. The Bible even seems to somewhat mirror the migration of man out of Africa. Seriously, read the first two books of the Bible and start asking yourself which tribe went where and which people they became. And who did Adam and Eve's kids marry? Probably Neanderthals, even if not until Esau and Jacob.

    Anyway, GO SCIENCE! And GO JESUS! And everywhere they intersect, I'm glad.

    My wife and I have VERY similar belief systems! Liberal, scientific, and faith blended. It works well for us! But having different faiths would be tricky, I'd think. Plan wisely. I'd say "Pray about it" but maybe a good list of pros and cons is more in order.
    +1 Love this! :-)

  3. #83
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    Him, you didn't understand I was using sarcasm?
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  4. #84
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    Sarcasm about being neighbors?

    If you meant something you said about religion, sorry. Religion is one of those subjects where it is impossible to use being "over the top" to indicate sarcasm. There is no top, apparently. Or perhaps the problem is that religion is inherently ironic and detecting irony about irony is "easy" only in an ironic sense.


    But, since you like videos, I found this one for your amusement:


    If Dawkins is correct humans are merely a collection of memes and "being" is an illusion. Like the philosopher/theologian said in the BBC Did Darwin Kill God I linked to, Dawkins' memes undermines his own reasoning...
    More "sarcasm" or just misunderstanding? Memes are ideas which can be shared between consciousnesses. E.g. the idea of a supernatural being which cannot be observed but can affect the physical world. Humans are entities which can understand/receive, store, act on, and communicate memes...or do something which can be described that way, at any rate. That's very far from "merely" by even the most jaded perspective.
    Last edited by Him; 12-01-2012 at 08:17 PM.

  5. #85
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    No, no...sarcasm in my reply to you with the floating off the planet without god holding my feet to the ground. Go back and look at your statements about religion in which I was replying to
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  6. #86
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    Oh, that. Yeah, I caught that you were trying to skip past my argument by sarcastically saying you believe something you probably don't. I addressed that yesterday. What you believe, or don't, is irrelevant to what I was saying. You can be sarcastic or earnest but you can't change the fact that some people do understand how the world works only through the lens of religion. Whether you are one of them doesn't change that fact. As such, you bringing up your views (no matter how sarcastically expressed) was what one might call a red herring. In truth I suspect it was also false in that you obviously think you gain some understanding through religion.

    Theology, like science, is an attempt to understand our existence. The same rules apply to each. If they can't prove their ideas are absolutely true, they have no right to try to change how people live based on those ideas. Right? That's the argument your apologists says was sound when used by the Catholic Church against Galileo, and you posted that video so you should have no problem with the rule. However, religious people want to apply that rule to others but never to themselves. Religious people fight being held to the same standard your own sources admit they apply to other methods of understanding. Do you know how much that matters to anyone outside of religion?

    It does not. It's a flawed standard (absolute proof isn't needed) and a prime area of religious hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Him; 12-01-2012 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #87
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    Another atheist lady... always have been despite being taken to both Baptist and Presb. churches as a child. It just never made sense to me.

    As far as humans and gods/myth making.
    Of course those things were handy at one time and became progressively more complicated as our cultures did.
    But also... much of that is/has been being replaced by science and fact... things that gods and myth were used to explain in times before we had access to the knowledge we have now.

    I don't see a problem if someone wants to still feel connected to a deity or whatever. I guess it fills some need for them and I simply don't share that need for whatever reason.
    Different wiring perhaps? I've heard this theory before, that some people are born predisposed to seek religion and others are not which explains why some people raised 100% in the church never 'feel it' and some who are raised with no religion at all strive to find one.
    I don't know how that explains those who convert from belief to disbelief though... unless they simply convert to a belief in science.

    But I'm sure glad I found a guy who is just as atheist as I am!
    And, were I single again, I would certainly seek out people of like mind to have relationships with because in the past I always felt I had to hide it...
    That video above reminded me too much of my childhood in a small TN town where being non-Christian was indeed a reason to be shunned! I slipped it a few times when I was really young, but learned not to talk about it, and sweep it under the rug, and left that town.
    Last edited by cori93437; 12-01-2012 at 10:21 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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  8. #88
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    Definitely neo-pagan.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him View Post
    Oh, that. Yeah, I caught that you were trying to skip past my argument by sarcastically saying you believe something you probably don't. I addressed that yesterday. What you believe, or don't, is irrelevant to what I was saying. You can be sarcastic or earnest but you can't change the fact that some people do understand how the world works only through the lens of religion.
    I wasn't' skipping anything. You claimed there were still a "whole lotta people" who interpret the how the world works only through religious tools http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1019784 but in this post you say "some people." I don't know what a whole lot of people and some people mean. What I can tell you, and I did after the sarcasm, is that I don't view the the world only through religious tools, likewise neither did the director of the Vatican Observatory. He in fact has said you don't need religion to explain astronomical observations.

    Whether you are one of them doesn't change that fact. As such, you bringing up your views (no matter how sarcastically expressed) was what one might call a red herring. In truth I suspect it was also false in that you obviously think you gain some understanding through religion.
    (I'm getting the impression that you are way more emotionally invested in this than I am.) Understanding about what? How the world works using religion? Nope, you'd be wrong if that's what mean. If my views on using scientific methods is no different that an atheist's what difference would that make to you, then, what I believe religiously? If my religious views leads me to hold certain moral values what difference does that make in a meaningless, purposeless universe? I such a purposeless universe morality is arbitrary and as such all cultural moral codes are equivalent....there would be no such thing as a "basic human right," anyway. You couldn't factually say one morality is better than any other. You might prefer one to another, but you can't factually say that culture's moral codes are inferior.


    Theology, like science, is an attempt to understand our existence. The same rules apply to each. If they can't prove their ideas are absolutely true, they have no right to try to change how people live based on those ideas. Right? That's the argument your apologists says was sound when used by the Catholic Church against Galileo, and you posted that video so you should have no problem with the rule. However, religious people want to apply that rule to others but never to themselves. Religious people fight being held to the same standard your own sources admit they apply to other methods of understanding. Do you know how much that matters to anyone outside of religion?
    The same rules do not apply to science and theology any more than science does to ethics. That apologist is a Columbia University PhD in history who was reporting that Galileo was allowed to teach his speculation as theory, which in fact what it was...at that time. So how about a source that isn't Catholic?

    Intro Topic: Galileo
    "The most infamous clash between science and religion is undoubtedly the Galileo affair. According to popular mythology the great Italian physicist Galileo Galilei almost lost his life at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church for championing the idea that the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the sun circling the earth. Yet historians have now shown that the whole story has been greatly exaggerated, and that the reality was a lot more complex.

    In fact Galileo never spent a single day in jail. During his trial he was housed in luxury in a cardinal's palace, and throughout his life some of his greatest supporters were cardinals and other churchmen. At the time of his trial, in 1633, no one had definite proof that the earth orbits the sun. The truth is that astronomy then was not accurate enough to decide between an earth-centered and sun-centered system. Nonetheless, the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church (along with many other scholars at the time) was slowly moving towards accepting this new vision of the heavens, and it is likely that the whole conflict could have been avoided if Galileo himself had been a bit less arrogant. The church was far from admirable in its behavior, in that Galileo was committed to house arrest for the last eight years of life, for espousing his views. Yet the church did not try to stop him from pursuing his science, and it was in fact during this time that he wrote his great book, "Dialogs Concerning Two New Sciences", which established his role as a founder of modern physics."

    God, Humanity and the Cosmos Topic: The Galileo Affair
    The Galileo Affair

    Galileo’s complex relationship with his contemporaries, and especially the Papal authorities, has had intensive study in recent years. For an accessible account see Ch.6 of Michael Poole’s Beliefs and Values in Science Education.Poole, MW, Buckingham: Open University Press, 1995. For other corrections to the standard caricature of the merely-blinkered Church against the noble scientist, see Brooke and Cantor,Brooke, JH and Cantor, G, Reconstructing Nature (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1998) Ch.4,Willem B DreesReligion, Science and Naturalism (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996) pp55-63 or Owen Gingerich.‘The Galileo affair’ Scientific American 247 (2), pp118-127 (1982). For a more specialised investigation see Finocchiaro.Finocchiaro, MP, (ed.) The Galileo Affair (Berkeley and San Francisco: University of California Press, 1989).

    It is important to realise:

    that Galileo’s own position was multifaceted, and not merely driven by an ambition to advance science, but also by a real desire to see it reconciled with Scripture. His approach was very much rooted in the hermeneutics of St Augustine (see the type of case Galileo made).

    Pope Urban VIII, who ordered Galileo’s final interrogation, had earlier defended Copernicus’ book, despite disagreeing with it.

    Cardinal Bellarmine, chiefly responsible for dealing with Galileo for the Vatican until his death in 1621, was not a bigoted cleric either, but an open and thoughtful one, keenly concerned with astronomy. Bellarmine’s approach emerges in passages like this one from a letter to Foscarini:

    I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the centre of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great caution in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary, and say rather that we do not understand them than that what is demonstrated is false.Quoted in Finocchiaro, 1989, 68

    This complex affair, then, was influenced by a number of factors:

    the scientific, yes, but it is worth pointing out that because Galileo ignored Kepler’s work his model still fitted the data no better than its best geocentric competitor. It also suffered from the great problem that it predicted stellar parallax, which had not then been observed.If the earth moves round the sun, there should be parallax, i.e. a difference between the relative positions of neighbouring stars as observed at different times of year. None is observable with the naked...

    the epistemological - what, in the terms of the passage quoted above from Bellarmine, constitutes a ‘demonstration’? How should Bible-reading astronomers understand their data, and their Bibles, in the interim phase when a scientific model has been proposed but is not yet established?Gingerich has shown moreover that Galileo’s own logic was not always of the soundest in his efforts to demonstrate his case (Gingerich, 1982, 123).

    the hermeneutical - how should Scripture be read, how should that reading affect or be affected by science? Above all, who should have the authority to determine the range of permitted readings?The Council of Trent, in tightening the structures of the Roman Church, had ruled in 1546 that ‘no one should dare to interpret Scripture "contrary to the unanimous consensus of the Fathers"’...

    the political - it was a stage in the Counter-Reformation at which the Vatican felt the need to assert its central authority.

    the personal - Galileo pursued his cause with an arrogant lack of tact and diplomacy which in the end forfeited the patience even of those inclined to sympathise with his view.

    Small wonder that when the trial is ‘rerun’ in classes on science and religion Galileo is often the loser!

    The utter triumph of heliocentrism that followed ended forever any prospect that a religious group could exercise the sort of hegemony over an area of scientific inquiry that the Vatican tried to assert in suppressing Galileo. It showed moreover that a scientific theory could gradually gain in comprehensiveness and coherence until it displaced another, without requiring a strict logical demonstration. <end quote>

    Counter Balance has a lot good interviews: Interview: Full Interview Index

    It does not. It's a flawed standard (absolute proof isn't needed) and a prime area of religious hypocrisy.
    No, but enough evidence is needed and Galileo didn't have it in his time.
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    I wasn't' skipping anything. You claimed there were still a "whole lotta people" who interpret the how the world works only through religious tools http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1019784 but in this post you say "some people." I don't know what a whole lot of people and some people mean. What I can tell you, and I did after the sarcasm, is that I don't view the the world only through religious tools, likewise neither did the director of the Vatican Observatory. He in fact has said you don't need religion to explain astronomical observations.
    A whole lotta/some = uncounted millions. Everyone who believes a literal interpretation of a creation myth al la Genesis for example. Traditional Buddhists, Hindus, and pretty much the entire Abrahamic schism, all start with that idea in one form or another. Most retain it. You don't? That's nice.

    However, you seem to be missing something I am saying: religion is a tool for understanding the human experience. I am not saying "the physical world" though the physical world is part of the human experience and most religions do offer answers on the subject. My assertion is that religion, like science and philosophy, is a means of explaining that which people feel the need to have explained. I suspect that despite your protestations it is that for you. You keep trying to turn it back to science and claim religion is different, but I say that to the extent that they are both part of a pursuit of truth/understanding they do follow the same fundamental rules...and that disagreement is the heart of the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    (I'm getting the impression that you are way more emotionally invested in this than I am.)
    So let's see... you come into a thread started by someone who is bummed that his girlfriend is dumping him, launch into copy/paste argument about things that have been rehashed a million times and don't really matter to the subject, mostly straw men, and when your copy/paste arguments are dismissed you try to use sarcasm to distract from the fact that your position comes down to, "religion isn't what it is to millions of people because I say it isn't that to me and look behind you, it's an elephant! Really! Look!"

    No, I'm not the guy who walked into a bar to tell everyone about the evils of drink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    Understanding about what? How the world works using religion? Nope, you'd be wrong if that's what mean. If my views on using scientific methods is no different that an atheist's what difference would that make to you, then, what I believe religiously? If my religious views leads me to hold certain moral values what difference does that make in a meaningless, purposeless universe? I such a purposeless universe morality is arbitrary and as such all cultural moral codes are equivalent....there would be no such thing as a "basic human right," anyway. You couldn't factually say one morality is better than any other. You might prefer one to another, but you can't factually say that culture's moral codes are inferior.
    More straw men.

    1) nobody cares what you believe, except that you used your own views as an example and therefore raised the question
    2) purpose is not necessary to differentiate arbitrary from non-arbitrary; that oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water is totally without purpose, but it is NOT arbitrary within our universe
    3) nobody is saying there is a basic human right here... There may be an objective basis for a social contract, and Human Right may be a good term of art, but that's a different subject
    4) nobody is saying that your moral code is inferior here...mainly because nobody knows what if any moral code you have, and that's OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    "The most infamous clash between science and religion is undoubtedly the Galileo affair.
    So they start with a major league miss. The most infamous clash between science and religion is the evolution clash, which is still going strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    could have been avoided if Galileo himself had been a bit less arrogant
    And, "She wouldn't have been raped if she'd just gone with it and consented."

    You and your sources keep trying to turn this to a Galileo was wearing a miniskirt type argument, but you are missing the entire point of why people care about the incident. You are missing the very root of the problem.

    It isn't that the Catholic Church persecuted Galileo...it really isn't. The Church persecuted a LOT of people back then so who cares about one more. Besides, compared to some of what they did, their treatment of Galileo was kinda weak sauce. No, the issue isn't how he was treated, but the realization that there was a double standard being applied. It's that he was treated as he was for doing exactly as the church does. The church was holding ideas based on observation of the natural world to a standard that the church would not accept for ideas based on the teachings of the church, and there isn't a good reason for that double standard.

    At some point people grow up and no longer need their parents...and especially no longer need their illusions about parent figures that aren't really parents. When that happens, good parent figures let go, let their offspring move on and perhaps come back to forge a new relationship as peers. The Catholic Church didn't want to do that. Isn't entirely comfortable with that to this day as far as I can tell, though they have mostly realized that science has moved out and gone to live its own life. Most religions, and most followers of the abrahamic faiths, aren't part of the Catholic Church though.
    Last edited by Him; 12-02-2012 at 12:13 PM.

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