Potato diet - Epic Fail, Glorious Victory page 13

[vonbraun]

Vonbraun, massive misread of that study. That study is saying that low protein intakes are worse than none because if you eat some protein but not enough, your body does not go into preservation mode. In a no-protein state, the body realizes there's a scarcity and so goes into a conservation state that protects your lean mass.

Sorry you are the one misreading the study, i just read it.

proteinturnover2.png

So 50g of protein intake is likely (in the shorter term) to lead to a greater loss of LBM than straight-up fasting because under fasting conditions, the body takes steps to protect itself that it won't take if you keep eating some but not enough.

Cite? This study shows that 50g of protein which is on the lower end of normal protein intake, is definitely preferable to no protein, even over a short period of a few days. You really think that eating no protein over say 5 days is preferable to eating 50g a day of protein over 5 days?

[vonbraun]

proteinturnover3.jpg

dietary intake of 0.6 g, consistant with the view that
this intake is close to the requirement value. In the
fasted state, the variations in oxidation with intake
were much less pronounced, and in the study of Yang
et al., they were absent.

[Neckhammer]

While I'm very interested in that paper (now that I found it) ...it's this one right? "Influence of Dietary Protein
Intake on Whole-Body Protein Turnover in Humans" from Diabetes Care 1991.

Papers like this one Higher Protein Intake Preserves Lean Mass and Satiety with Weight Loss in Pre-obese and Obese Women - Leidy - 2012 - Obesity - Wiley Online Library are actually much more to the point in direct comparison of high (1.4g/kg) vs moderate-low (0.8g/kg) effect.

"While the Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein intake is 0.8 grams protein/kg per day (23), we found that women who consumed an HP (≅1.4 g protein/kg per day) energy-restricted weight loss diet experienced a greater preservation of LBM, smaller reduction in satiety, and increased global pleasure while losing body weight and body fat compared with women who consumed a similar energy deficit with NP intake (≅0.8 g protein/kg per day). Furthermore, we identified a differential response to an HP diet based on obesity classification such that POB women, especially those who consumed the HP diet, exhibited greater preservation of LBM compared with the OB women who consumed the typical Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein."

[pklopp]

This study shows that 50g of protein which is on the lower end of normal protein intake, is definitely preferable to no protein, even over a short period of a few days. You really think that eating no protein over say 5 days is preferable to eating 50g a day of protein over 5 days?

While I disagree with your interpretation of the data, I will give you credit for attempting to put together an argument based at least partly on your understanding of the science.

I don't think anyone is advocating going 5 days with zero protein, in fact, I am advocating increasing the protein intake on the potato diet for which I am catching no end of flak. That part of your argument is nothing but a red herring.

We are not discussing protein requirements per se, but rather, protein requirements in the face of a caloric deficit. Within a reduced calorie context, higher protein intake is beneficial. Consider this study:

Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups.

So we have three groups, eating isocalorically at 80% of body weight maintenance, group one eating the RDA of 0.8g / kg PRO, the other two groups are also exercising, but eating double the RDA of protein at 1.5 g / kg, and lo and behold they all lose the same amount of weight. Case closed. Increased protein is irrelevant.

But that would be a hasty conclusion, because the researchers measured more than mere mass changes:

The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively.

So, the RDA protein intake group retained their muscle mass, but lost the 2.5 kg of fat. The high protein intake group actually lost more than double the amount of fat, but because they also put on muscle mass, the net change in body mass matched that of the RDA protein group. The really interesting group is the one ingesting their protein as casein, a slow digesting milk protein fraction, because they lost significantly more fat, and gained significantly more muscle as well, three times the fat mass lost, and double the muscle mass gain of the whey protein group!

If you are an active individual in caloric deficit, you should probably look at at upping your casein intake!

-PK

[gopintos]

If you are an active individual in caloric deficit, you should probably look at at upping your casein intake!

-PK

Such as? I was reading Lyle McDonald yesterday, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, and it suggested no fat dairy, .9g per LBM (for my category) and all the veggies you want but no starchy veggies like peas, carrots, corn & beets. He only mentions potatoes on the free meal and I assume it is okay during the 5 hr refeed each week also.

And several supplements including pot. & mag.

I am doing an all tator week this week, but I would do this potato+ after that. The following week might not be the best since I will be tired of tators but after a weekend break, it might be okay. I was already thinking of doing the Rapid Fat Loss after my tator week.

Good idea? Bad idea? I have plenty of fat yet to go around.

The only thing I can do is take measurements and my scale.

[pklopp]

Such as? I was reading Lyle McDonald yesterday, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, and it suggested no fat dairy, .9g per LBM (for my category) and all the veggies you want but no starchy veggies like peas, carrots, corn & beets. He only mentions potatoes on the free meal and I assume it is okay during the 5 hr refeed each week also.

And several supplements including pot. & mag.

I am doing an all tator week this week, but I would do this potato+ after that. The following week might not be the best since I will be tired of tators but after a weekend break, it might be okay. I was already thinking of doing the Rapid Fat Loss after my tator week.

Good idea? Bad idea? I have plenty of fat yet to go around.

The only thing I can do is take measurements and my scale.

Unfortunately, most people are in the same boat as you with respect to not being able to accurately measure body composition, and having to do with mass only. However, it's a start, and keeping accurate records of an admittedly equivocal metric is far preferable to keeping none.

In the study I cited, I believe that they used a casein hydrolysate, but essentially, you would be looking at some protein powder rather than a whole food source. Unhydrolyzed casein is extremely slow to digest, which would go a very long way towards maintaining satiety, I expect. You could try this as a supplement, but that's not a hydrolysate. This is, but it is grotesquely expensive.

Part of the reason for the expense is that in general hydrolysates taste absolutely awful, and it apparently requires great feats of science to overcome that. I would probably hold off and just go with whey, if I had to. The whey group gained 2 kg. lean mass and lost 4 kg. of fat mass. Nothing to sneeze at!

Or you could go completely off the reservation and just add albacore tuna and egg whites to your potatoes ... just sayin'.

-PK

[gopintos]

Or you could go completely off the reservation and just add albacore tuna and egg whites to your potatoes ... just sayin'.

-PK

I will do that one next week Gosh I hate wasting yolks though. Did you save them for some other use?

[pklopp]

I will do that one next week Gosh I hate wasting yolks though. Did you save them for some other use?

I completely feel your yolk empathy, and as a result, I only used egg whites that were already separated from Costco. I was extremely pleased in some sense when that phase of the experiment didn't pan out and I could proceed to using real, whole eggs again!

-PK

[pklopp]

The OP made an arrogant supposition in the subject line. All bets are off as to this being a serious and genuine scientific investigation.

Was this directed at me? If so, I'm not following what you are saying with respect to the supposition that you claim I made?

-PK

[Paleobird]

Was this directed at me? If so, I'm not following what you are saying with respect to the supposition that you claim I made?

Don't worry about it, PK. Paleo-bunny just likes to go around and pick fights for no particular reason. Then she arrogantly refers to anyone else who has an opinion as "arrogant". It is puzzling.