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  1. #41
    AlanC's Avatar
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    Canio, thanks for confirming something.

    What if it's a pill they take daily and forget a day or two?
    But we're not talking about anything like that, we're talking about something that lasts until the man deliberately goes to the doc and makes an appointment for it to be removed.

    Besides which I still don't see, and don't think there ever was a time, when men would go out of their way to assure women they would not be trusted to take pills.

    In fairness the only issue here on this forum was the immediate lack of trust, which is good compared to what I've seen before.

    I'm not sure if this "lining" thing is the same but a few years ago in India that had a thing called a "shug", a rice-grain sized thing injected and which could be left there for years, completely reversible by removing it. Back then I was on a number of forums and the anger and hissy-fits over it were incredible.

    While idly toying with the idea of providing some links, here's one of the first results:

    A male birth control pill? New drug shows promise - Health - Men's health | NBC News

    And instantly and immediately below it, we get this:

    "Would you trust a man to take a birth control pill?"

    As for the "It's the woman that gets pregnant" thing, yes. And it's the woman that can choose to:

    Take the "morning after" pill
    Abort the pregnancy later
    Have the child and put it up for adoption
    Have the child and dump it at a 'dropping off point'
    Have the child and raise it, regardless if the 'father' doesn't want to be a parent (but forcing him to pay for her choice)
    Have the child and raise it, excluding the 'father' if he DOES want to be a parent (and still forcing him to pay for her choice)
    Have the child and raise it, including the father

    Now if men had THOSE choices THEN I would find it less offensive if immediately told I'm untrustworthy to use contraception...

    This should be something that both sexes embrace with glee, yet so often it seems to spark nasty arguments. It really does seem to me that women cling to this as "their" area and get positively snarky at the idea of MEN actually having control of their own parenthood.

    Jus' an observation.



    AC

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbone View Post
    I'd love to see a show of hands from the women who've been with a guy who's said something along the lines of "Come on baby, I hate condoms, I promise to pull out on time" or any other excuse that is a pretty good indicator that a whole lot of men are less serious about their contraceptive methods when the opportunity for sex arises.
    *raises hand*

    At sixteen. Yeah, good times.

    Also, abortion, adoption, parenting...yes, those are all just super-duper awesome and are totally good alternatives to asking a dude to wrap it up if you're not sure he's being honest about whether he's had a shot/snip. Retroactive actions are always so much better than preventing the problem to begin with. And access to the morning-after pill is not exactly reliable. I was once in a situation in my 20s when it was a holiday and only a couple of pharmacies in town were open, and the one I went to had a pharmacist who exercised his right to "conscience" to refuse to sell me Plan B. I had to drive 45 minutes to get it--thankfully I owned a car or I might have been SOL.

    Seriously, you want to avoid getting a woman pregnant, cool, get the shot. Do you trust every woman to be telling the truth when she says she's on the pill? I would be the answer is no given your rant about women's list of choices (the statement that women force men to do things around parenting is telling as to your ideas about women's trustworthiness around reproductive choices). If you don't want some woman to force you to pay for child support, then get the shot, but if she wants you to wrap it up too, then grow the fuck up and wear a condom. You don't trust her, that's obvious from your statements, so why do you expect women to just trust you?

    I'm in the fortunate position to have a partner that I can trust, and we make reproductive choices together, but people don't always have sex with monogamous partners they trust on that level, and in those circumstances, believing someone when they say "I'm on the pill/have had the shot/am sterile/don't have any STIs" is just plain stupid regardless of gender.

    So nope, I don't trust that all men will be honest about this stuff. I don't trust that all women will be either. If you do, then you're pretty naive about human nature.
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  3. #43
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    Let's go back to the original comment that got you riled up.

    Just so you know -- I would never trust a male who tells me that he's got birth control covered. So long as I'm the one getting pregnant -- I'll take responsibility for myself, thank you. You can take whatever pills, shot, surgery you like, I'll always look after myself and never trust another.
    I'm going to assume that this is a more casual relationship than anything longer term, because if you aren't having honest conversations with your long term partner about this kind of thing you have bigger issues than who's responsible for birth control. As for women agreeing with it, hell yes, I agree. And I agree with Canio as well, any man in a casual relationship who takes a woman's word that she's using BC is an idiot. Doesn't necessarily mean either party is being malicious, but people can get stupid when it comes to sex.

    This should be something that both sexes embrace with glee, yet so often it seems to spark nasty arguments. It really does seem to me that women cling to this as "their" area and get positively snarky at the idea of MEN actually having control of their own parenthood.
    And you seem to be completely misinterpreting women's aversion to male BC. It has NOTHING to do with men controlling their own parenthood (except for maybe in a few neurotic women) and everything to do with being able to trust that it will work and the man that they're sleeping with has done everything correctly and is telling the truth. Let's say, just for argument's sake, the male implant is available, you have it done and a month or two later have sex with a woman you either just met or don't know all that well. You tell her that you have the implant and don't need to worry about birth control. Should she trust you? Now reverse the roles, should you trust her if she says the same? If you answer yes to either scenario then you're an idiot. Now let's say you're in a long term/committed relationship and you both decide that the implant is the best method of contraception. You have it done, she knows you've had it done, maybe you even had it done before you met, but you know each other well enough to believe each other. Should she trust it as a form of birth control? Yes, I think she should, if she agrees that it's effective enough. But that's the thing, it's a matter of trust, and people who had out their trust too easily get burned.

  4. #44
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    See, that's exactly the abusive and defensive mind-set I mentioned.

    Also, abortion, adoption, parenting...yes, those are all just super-duper awesome and are totally good alternatives to asking a dude to wrap it up
    No, those are super-duper awesome alternatives to 16-20 years of child support, the emotional drain of thinking about a child you (statistically likely) are not allowed to see (hard to forget when still paying for them for years) and the crippling effect losing such a chunk of your future income can have on having children later that you DO want.

    I've seen it happen to too many guys.

    Likewise this is something I noticed before - whenever a guy speaks up in favor, he gets attacked as though HE is somehow the problem, can't get laid, hates women or some other such slur. In other words, you attack the messenger?

    Ironic.

    My "rant" about women's choices was simply pointing out the disparity in those choices, considering the man's choice is "Go along with whatever the woman chooses, by law".

    Before you spout any more offensive insults towards me, I'm happily married, have been for over 8 years now and we're actively hoping for children, but hey, whack me around the head with some more stereotypes while you're at it?

    Like I said, sheesh.



    AC

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanC View Post
    Now if men had THOSE choices THEN I would find it less offensive if immediately told I'm untrustworthy to use contraception...
    I agree with you but despite all those options available to women all a man has to do is move across statelines and yay, no child support, no responsibility, no worries...at least for him. That said, for the very reason that men are denied what I call 'second choice' I support men taking care of their own contraception. Both sexes get first choice 'Do I want to sleep with this person." Only women get second choice "Huh, wtf do I do now that I am pregnant?" Men are denied that. All the more reason for a dude to be sure he wont impregnate anyone he doesn't want to.

    As for trust, eh, yeah, it blows that as a guy women won't trust us. Perhaps there is a good reason for that. I'll be honest, when it comes to sex, I trust women about as far as I can throw them. If you have seen one dude trapped into fatherhood you have seen too many (I am not saying this happens all the time or often, but seeing it once was enough for me). So Sally McBarChick doesn't believe I had the contraceptive polymer stuff? Fine, I don't trust that she isn't carry Gonaherpasyphalitis. Also, I am sure as heck not going to believe her when she says, "Sure, I took the pill, uh, yeah, every day." Screw that noise.

    tl;dr sex has far too many expensive complications to take anyone's word for their contraceptive use - outside of a longterm, committed relationship.
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  6. #46
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    Blackcatbone, yep, yep and yep, but we're not talking about hindsight wisdom or a perfect world, I was pointing out how the very subject instantly brings out a "Men are at best too lazy and stupid, plus they'd lie to get laid" attitude.

    In other words, what actually happens when this subject is raised.

    Generally a pretty major part of sex is trust. Yeah for both sexes. Yet your knee-jerk reaction is 'men can't be trusted'? So that includes the men that you trust enough to have sex with, perhaps trust enough to marry, to raise your kids and all that - but contraception? Oh heck no!

    OK, so you're NOW sliding sideways and claiming you presumed or are only talking about casual sex, perhaps casual sex between drunk teenagers or something - but what you said was (and really I'm not picking on you, just curious how this always happens):

    Just so you know -- I would never trust a male who tells me that he's got birth control covered. So long as I'm the one getting pregnant
    My bolding.

    Never means never and since your husband isn't the one getting pregnant we're left to presume you are including all and any men, including husbands etc.

    Anyway, I've made my point, simply that I find it curious how women seem to think the concept of men having more contraceptive choice calls for men to be declared untrustworthy and, on some other forums, a lot worse.

    Really it's bizarre the arguments it can cause. Neo-nazis talking about birth rates and all sorts. Crazy. But I'm pretty much gonna bow out now, as I really can't asked to engage in a discussion where I get insulted. Part of being primal is avoiding stress and I just don't need that.



    AC

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanC View Post
    OK, so you're NOW sliding sideways and claiming you presumed or are only talking about casual sex, perhaps casual sex between drunk teenagers or something - but what you said was (and really I'm not picking on you, just curious how this always happens):

    Just so you know -- I would never trust a male who tells me that he's got birth control covered. So long as I'm the one getting pregnant
    My bolding.

    Never means never and since your husband isn't the one getting pregnant we're left to presume you are including all and any men, including husbands etc.

    Anyway, I've made my point, simply that I find it curious how women seem to think the concept of men having more contraceptive choice calls for men to be declared untrustworthy and, on some other forums, a lot worse.

    Really it's bizarre the arguments it can cause. Neo-nazis talking about birth rates and all sorts. Crazy. But I'm pretty much gonna bow out now, as I really can't asked to engage in a discussion where I get insulted. Part of being primal is avoiding stress and I just don't need that.



    AC
    I never said that, I was quoting the initial statement that you referenced. From the get go I separated casual from serious. I assumed the person meant casual, as anyone who was in a long term relationship with someone they felt that way about, well, unless there was some kind of coercion happening, has other issues.

  8. #48
    AlanC's Avatar
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    I never said that, I was quoting the initial statement that you referenced
    Oops, my mistake! Sorry about that



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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanC View Post
    No, those are super-duper awesome alternatives to 16-20 years of child support, the emotional drain of thinking about a child you (statistically likely) are not allowed to see (hard to forget when still paying for them for years) and the crippling effect losing such a chunk of your future income can have on having children later that you DO want.

    I've seen it happen to too many guys.
    And you assume I haven't? I think unplanned, unwanted pregnancies pretty much suck for everyone. I also know all too well what happens when a dad who wants to parent is cut out. I have a sister I've only seen a handful of times in my life. You want me not to assume things about you, don't assume things about me.

    Also, 16-20 years of child support is somehow worse than 16-20 years of raising a child when you didn't want to be pregnant? Women don't lose a chunk of their personal income when they raise children? Raising a child alone isn't emotionally draining? Adoption isn't traumatic for women? I don't think unwanted pregnancy is all shits and giggles for anyone. Better to prevent the whole mess, really. And if a woman wants to prevent all that, she's far better off making sure (as much as possible) that she doesn't get pregnant, and the best way to do that is to make sure she controls her own fertility and not simply trust that someone else has it covered, just as any sensible man who doesn't want to get a woman pregnant should do the same.

    I think nobody should believe someone they don't know and trust when it comes to birth control, regardless of gender. It's not about men vs. women, it's about people having control over their reproductive choices, and that includes the right to ask someone to put a condom on or to use one if one does not have absolute confidence that they are disease free and have another effective birth control option in use. That's not about men being evil or lazy or whatever--it's about not being an idiot when it comes to sex.

    Likewise this is something I noticed before - whenever a guy speaks up in favor, he gets attacked as though HE is somehow the problem, can't get laid, hates women or some other such slur. In other words, you attack the messenger?
    Right, but the attitude that us bitches are just all out to get men and use reproduction as a mode of control is totally positive and non-confrontational. And the dismissal of the shitty outcomes that exist for women who have unwanted pregnancies as easier or less emotionally/financially difficult than men's is rather ridiculous. It's a crap deal on all sides.

    I'm glad you are in a happy relationship where you can make reproductive choices together. Not everyone has that, and in those cases, trusting someone else to be responsible for whether or not a pregnancy occurs is very naive.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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  10. #50
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    A little rational scepticism is a good thing. As in, s/he is probably telling the truth, but I'm an adult, so I want to be in control of contraception also.

    This whole women bad/men bad thing is stupid. How can one possibly enjoy bumping uglies with someone who is a member of a gender one distrusts that much? If I felt that way about the opposite sex, I'd either get myself a BOB (battery operated boyfriend) or just do it to myself. Jeez.

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