Ketogenic Athlete Study page 2

[Neckhammer]

Well the recommended was 1.2-1.7g/kg/bw....for me this would be 86.4-122.4, which is about where I fall on the PB .7-1g/lb/lean mass scale as well.

Does the recommended diet not match up then with what was consumed?

[Drumroll]

Well the recommended was 1.2-1.7g/kg/bw....for me this would be 86.4-122.4, which is about where I fall on the PB .7-1g/lb/lean mass scale as well.

Does the recommended diet not match up then with what was consumed?

See the edit to my last post. I calculated it out. WAY more than you suggest here.

It COULD match up, if these folks are HUGE.

[Gorbag]

"The diets were explained to all subjects by a qualified dietician during an individual visit. Dietary intake was measured by validated 3- day food diary that has been used in the past in studies with athletes and analysed by Dietnext® (Caldogno, Vicenza, Italy) software. During the ketogenic period the prescribed daily intake of carbohydrate was 22 g. The percentage distribution of total daily energy macronutrients was 54.8% fat, 40.7% protein and 4.5% carbohydrates. The total amount of daily kilojoules was 8254.5 ± 1136. During the WD period the macronutrients were distributed in the following order: 46.8% carbohydrate, 38.5% lipids, 14.7% protein. The Western diet provided a total daily kJ 9520.7 ± 1080.71"

Not only a ketonic diet versus a typical western diet, but also a high protein versus low/moderate protein diet. It's pretty well known that diets high on protein, ketonic or not, are better for fatloss and bodycomposition due to certain effects of protein...

[Drumroll]

Not only a ketonic diet versus a typical western diet, but also a high protein versus low/moderate protein diet. It's pretty well known that diets high on protein, ketonic or not, are better for fatloss and bodycomposition due to certain effects of protein...

Not disagreeing there, but if the goal was to measure the effects of ketosis on overall strength of the athletes, I'd love to hear how it was ensured that the athletes stayed in ketosis even with all that protein. Though the ability of protein to stimulate glucogenesis is often overblown, at the levels these athletes were consuming, there was almost assuredly a fair amount going on unless these folks were hitting the gym daily (and hard) or were, quite literally, 200 pound lean beasts of muscle.

They do seem to exceed the typical .7-1 gram of protein per pound of LEAN body weight recommendation unless we assume they are all at least 190 lbs with 0% body fat. I'd say it seems reasonable to expect that at those levels of protein consumption, glucogenesis should have kicked in there at some point. I'd like to know how the researches either prevented that from occurring or controlled for it.

[Neckhammer]

Gluconeogenesis surely happens, but the studies done indicate it is a slow process and not rate dependent on protein substrate. I've linked this before, but here you go The Ketogenic Diet for Health: If You Eat Excess Protein, Does It Turn Into Excess Glucose?

Now, I'm not saying that excess protein doesn't keep you from entering ketosis (not questioning your experience).....but it really shouldn't be from the excess protein being converted to carbohydrate.

Oh, and the 1.2-1.7g/Kg/bw was not mine...that was in the study somewhere in reference to another study on minimum requirments to retain lean mass.

Also, both diets were eaten ad libum and the western one ended up with 300 more calories than the keto one. So this was obviously not a isocaloric diet, but an overview of the two macro ratios only. Of course the protein deal is big, and its a portion of why keto diets are so lean mass sparing. It is still quite interesting that the participants were just as strong "glycogen depleted" as not. You expect that in endurance sports, but even with these confounding factors its quite interesting in a glycolytic activity like gymnastics. There is a lot of energy partitioning changes that happen at the muscle level when keto adapted (or just glucose limited) and its good to see a study go long enough to guage some of that.

[Drumroll]

Gluconeogenesis surely happens, but the studies done indicate it is a slow process and not rate dependent on protein substrate. I've linked this before, but here you go The Ketogenic Diet for Health: If You Eat Excess Protein, Does It Turn Into Excess Glucose?

Now, I'm not saying that excess protein doesn't keep you from entering ketosis (not questioning your experience).....but it really shouldn't be from the excess protein being converted to carbohydrate.

Ah, so anyone can consume any amount of protein and ALWAYS be in ketosis? Sorry, it's a nice thought, but even Mark has warned against excess protein causing glucogenesis and pushing people out of ketosis and/or leading to weight gain due to the resultant (admitedly weak, but still measurable) insulin response.

My beef is, it sounds as if the goal here was to measure the effects of ketosis. If the athletes weren't in ketosis the whole time, the researchers simply need to explain how they dealt with this variable in calculating results.

[Gorbag]

AND..., I am not an expert by all means, but a quick glance on the paper tell me that there is also an energy difference between those two diets, converted from Joule to Kcal, on the ketonic diet KJ 8254.5 ± 1136 versus kJ 9520.7 ± 1080.71 on the WD! That gives around 302 calories lower per day for the Ketogenic diet = 9060 kcal in the 30 days that the study lasted. And guess what? 9060 calories is close to 3 lb. of bodyfat! So, that may explain the 3 lb. fat loss from the ketonic diet, very impressive study...

[Mr. Anthony]

Probably one thing to keep in mind here is that elite gymnasts are working out, hard, full-time. Your average elite (not even Olympics, necessarily) program has gymnasts in the gym at least 20 hours per week, often more. And they're doing workouts that average in-shape people can barely imagine.

[Drumroll]

AND..., I am not an expert by all means, but a quick glance on the paper tell me that there is also an energy difference between those two diets, converted from Joule to Kcal, on the ketonic diet KJ 8254.5 ± 1136 versus kJ 9520.7 ± 1080.71 on the WD! That gives around 302 calories lower per day for the Ketogenic diet = 9060 kcal in the 30 days that the study lasted. And guess what? 9060 calories is close to 3 lb. of bodyfat! So, that may explain the 3 lb. fat loss from the ketonic diet, very impressive study...

I had just started to notice that too... Calories in, calories out can make a difference, even when in ketosis, so they should have kept caloric intake constant among both diets in my opinion.

[Drumroll]

Probably one thing to keep in mind here is that elite gymnasts are working out, hard, full-time. Your average elite (not even Olympics, necessarily) program has gymnasts in the gym at least 20 hours per week, often more. And they're doing workouts that average in-shape people can barely imagine.

True, I admit that much. But I don't know... Still seems like once you get past the 1 gram per lb measuring point, you hit a point of diminishing returns. I've heard professional body builders (speaking of hours logged in the gym), using the 1 gram per lb point for themselves, and if ANYONE could play around with that...