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Thread: lean gains and cortisol

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  1. #1
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    lean gains and cortisol

    does the fasting after a workout with a setup for the 1st meal being at 1pm cause a cortisol spike after training, even with some bcaa?

    Meaning, train at 7am til 8:30am, meal 1 and feeding window starts at 1-8:30pm.

    anybody care to eloborate...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    does the fasting after a workout with a setup for the 1st meal being at 1pm cause a cortisol spike after training, even with some bcaa?

    Meaning, train at 7am til 8:30am, meal 1 and feeding window starts at 1-8:30pm.

    anybody care to eloborate...
    Who cares? People blab too much about hormones making things more complicated than they need to be. It's all about calories.

    Ever hear about the placebo affect? Lean gains works because you lift weights and count calories, just like with any other program that works. As if berkhan invented getting ripped?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Who cares? People blab too much about hormones making things more complicated than they need to be. It's all about calories.

    Ever hear about the placebo affect? Lean gains works because you lift weights and count calories, just like with any other program that works. As if berkhan invented getting ripped?
    Actually, LeanGains works because of the increases in GH secretion during fasting, the ingestion of tons of protein, yes, lifting weights, and the macro nutrient and caloric cycling. You don't count calories. But eating less carbs and calories on rest days and more on training days plays the starring role.

    As for the cortisol increase? I agree. Who cares. Even if somebody said yes, what are you gonna do? If you have a problem with cortisol, then go watch a funny movie or something.
    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdilla View Post
    Actually, LeanGains works because of the increases in GH secretion during fasting, the ingestion of tons of protein, yes, lifting weights, and the macro nutrient and caloric cycling. You don't count calories. But eating less carbs and calories on rest days and more on training days plays the starring role.

    As for the cortisol increase? I agree. Who cares. Even if somebody said yes, what are you gonna do? If you have a problem with cortisol, then go watch a funny movie or something.
    Isocaloric studies show that the number of meals doesn't matter. So the gh increase is just hype.

    As for the large amounts of protein, studies show that isn't necessary or beneficial for muscle growth or maintenance.

    I liked a lot of Martin's writings. But I am convinced that a few of the extra things he does from the basics simply isn't necessary. The best thing I learned from IF literature is that I don't have to be a slave to my diet in order to get good results. But that also means not buying into some extra made up crap such as BCAA's and other stuff.

    That also includes carb cycling the way he does. I don't buy into it. The muscles are fueled by glycogen, so it seems backward to eat it after the workout.

    And guess what. You burn the same number of calories no matter if you eat before or after your workout.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Isocaloric studies show that the number of meals doesn't matter. So the gh increase is just hype.

    As for the large amounts of protein, studies show that isn't necessary or beneficial for muscle growth or maintenance.

    I liked a lot of Martin's writings. But I am convinced that a few of the extra things he does from the basics simply isn't necessary. The best thing I learned from IF literature is that I don't have to be a slave to my diet in order to get good results. But that also means not buying into some extra made up crap such as BCAA's and other stuff.

    That also includes carb cycling the way he does. I don't buy into it. The muscles are fueled by glycogen, so it seems backward to eat it after the workout.

    And guess what. You burn the same number of calories no matter if you eat before or after your workout.
    Augmented growth hormone (GH) secret... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI - not sure if this has the the same (yet diminished, obviously) effect during the shorter fasts, but obviously fasting increases GH secretion

    There are benefits to training fasted, it's not just about calories: Training in the fasted state improves glucose tole... [J Physiol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    I can't speak for the carb cycling, and there seems to be some dogma surrounding the idea that carbs are necessary post-workout, so I'll leave that up for debate. I'll have to do some more research on the inclusion of BCAA, though. Would you mind citing your studies saying this amount of protein isn't beneficial for muscle growth? I'm genuinely interested.
    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdilla View Post
    Augmented growth hormone (GH) secret... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI - not sure if this has the the same (yet diminished, obviously) effect during the shorter fasts, but obviously fasting increases GH secretion

    There are benefits to training fasted, it's not just about calories: Training in the fasted state improves glucose tole... [J Physiol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    I can't speak for the carb cycling, and there seems to be some dogma surrounding the idea that carbs are necessary post-workout, so I'll leave that up for debate. I'll have to do some more research on the inclusion of BCAA, though. Would you mind citing your studies saying this amount of protein isn't beneficial for muscle growth? I'm genuinely interested.
    Thanks for posting the studies.

    Long story short, yes fasting does increase GH secretion, but so does every other method for making a difference in calories. Because thats how your body uses stored energy. And thats why it doesn't matter what method you use to make a difference in calories. Just pick one that you like best. They all work the same.

    With all that being said, I'm all about intermittent fasting, but its for different reasons. Its good to know that you don't HAVE to have 6 meals per day. I like 2 better, lunch and dinner. From a personal strategic standpoint it just works better for me. Its simpler, better on my time, more satisfying, and easier to make caloric adjustments.

    As per your question on protein, Brad Pilon covers the question thoroughly in his book "How Much Protein?", siting countless studies. In summary, studies show that you need at least 60 grams of protein per day in order to build muscle, even if you're on steroids, but any more than 120 grams per day doesn't help at all. Any more than 120 grams of protein per day won't hurt you either. It will only add extra calories.

    So again, with the protein its all about strategy and personal preference. Personally I can't eat that much of it when I'm really trying to drop my calories low to lose weight.

    I agree with you about the BCAA's and even Martin admitted in one of his writings that more studies were probably even needed to prove it.

    But I actually have another good point to make. Think about it this way. Building muscle is easy, really easy. Mike Mentzer knew this when he discovered with his clients how little training they actually needed. He claimed with proper training one can reach their genetic potential within a few years. If there is any validity to that statement at all, that should put any complex theories to rest. With hard work reaching your genetic potential should be relatively fast and definite no matter if you workout a little bit less or more and no matter if you eat a little bit less or more (within reason).

    With that being said, the smaller details in diet and exercise aren't going to matter as much. Once you've reached your genetic potential (which should be easy), you can take all the supplements you want, but you aren't going to grow anymore, of course unless you take steroids. That's why they call it a "genetic" potential, because its what you can achieve naturally (without drugs). The same thing goes for diet. You can go low carbs and take all the diet pills you want, but the fat isn't going to go away until you cut the calories.

    It really is that simple folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. They had ripped and strong guys 100 years ago, and probably even 100,000 years ago! We've probably done the best since the invention of the barbell, but other than that I highly doubt anything else has changed over the last 100 years, except perhaps the invention of steroids.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Who cares? People blab too much about hormones making things more complicated than they need to be. It's all about calories.

    Ever hear about the placebo affect? Lean gains works because you lift weights and count calories, just like with any other program that works. As if berkhan invented getting ripped?
    i'm so with you here! the only thing you should know about hormones are that the big compound lifts will get your body making the right ones. berkhan is smart enough to know that much. the IF bit is just his way of doing it, but calories rule the roost for what he's trying to achieve.
    Last edited by jakey; 10-23-2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: spelling, the only reason i ever edit!

  8. #8
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    You can't stop the exercise induced cortisol increase by watching a funny movie.
    It's a very very simplified way to think about hormonal mechanisms.
    Young self-caring Paleo-eater from France.
    (So please forgive the strange way I tend to express myself in your beautiful language )

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydreamer View Post
    You can't stop the exercise induced cortisol increase by watching a funny movie.
    It's a very very simplified way to think about hormonal mechanisms.
    No, of course not. I was joking that if he has a problem with excessive cortisol, he should find ways to reduce stress.
    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

  10. #10
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    No it's not the only thing you should know about hormones.
    Hormones are very important of overall physical and mental health.
    Young self-caring Paleo-eater from France.
    (So please forgive the strange way I tend to express myself in your beautiful language )

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