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Thread: lean gains and cortisol page 2

  1. #11
    bdilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripped View Post
    Isocaloric studies show that the number of meals doesn't matter. So the gh increase is just hype.

    As for the large amounts of protein, studies show that isn't necessary or beneficial for muscle growth or maintenance.

    I liked a lot of Martin's writings. But I am convinced that a few of the extra things he does from the basics simply isn't necessary. The best thing I learned from IF literature is that I don't have to be a slave to my diet in order to get good results. But that also means not buying into some extra made up crap such as BCAA's and other stuff.

    That also includes carb cycling the way he does. I don't buy into it. The muscles are fueled by glycogen, so it seems backward to eat it after the workout.

    And guess what. You burn the same number of calories no matter if you eat before or after your workout.
    Augmented growth hormone (GH) secret... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI - not sure if this has the the same (yet diminished, obviously) effect during the shorter fasts, but obviously fasting increases GH secretion

    There are benefits to training fasted, it's not just about calories: Training in the fasted state improves glucose tole... [J Physiol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    I can't speak for the carb cycling, and there seems to be some dogma surrounding the idea that carbs are necessary post-workout, so I'll leave that up for debate. I'll have to do some more research on the inclusion of BCAA, though. Would you mind citing your studies saying this amount of protein isn't beneficial for muscle growth? I'm genuinely interested.
    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
    On my workout days, I tend to work up an appetite like many of us do. Therefore, the increased calories and carbs just feel right and satisfy more. On my non workout days, eating lower carb but fattier meals also helps keep me full even though the calories are significantly less.
    Yup.
    Keep it simple.

  3. #13
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdilla View Post
    Augmented growth hormone (GH) secret... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI - not sure if this has the the same (yet diminished, obviously) effect during the shorter fasts, but obviously fasting increases GH secretion

    There are benefits to training fasted, it's not just about calories: Training in the fasted state improves glucose tole... [J Physiol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

    I can't speak for the carb cycling, and there seems to be some dogma surrounding the idea that carbs are necessary post-workout, so I'll leave that up for debate. I'll have to do some more research on the inclusion of BCAA, though. Would you mind citing your studies saying this amount of protein isn't beneficial for muscle growth? I'm genuinely interested.
    Thanks for posting the studies.

    Long story short, yes fasting does increase GH secretion, but so does every other method for making a difference in calories. Because thats how your body uses stored energy. And thats why it doesn't matter what method you use to make a difference in calories. Just pick one that you like best. They all work the same.

    With all that being said, I'm all about intermittent fasting, but its for different reasons. Its good to know that you don't HAVE to have 6 meals per day. I like 2 better, lunch and dinner. From a personal strategic standpoint it just works better for me. Its simpler, better on my time, more satisfying, and easier to make caloric adjustments.

    As per your question on protein, Brad Pilon covers the question thoroughly in his book "How Much Protein?", siting countless studies. In summary, studies show that you need at least 60 grams of protein per day in order to build muscle, even if you're on steroids, but any more than 120 grams per day doesn't help at all. Any more than 120 grams of protein per day won't hurt you either. It will only add extra calories.

    So again, with the protein its all about strategy and personal preference. Personally I can't eat that much of it when I'm really trying to drop my calories low to lose weight.

    I agree with you about the BCAA's and even Martin admitted in one of his writings that more studies were probably even needed to prove it.

    But I actually have another good point to make. Think about it this way. Building muscle is easy, really easy. Mike Mentzer knew this when he discovered with his clients how little training they actually needed. He claimed with proper training one can reach their genetic potential within a few years. If there is any validity to that statement at all, that should put any complex theories to rest. With hard work reaching your genetic potential should be relatively fast and definite no matter if you workout a little bit less or more and no matter if you eat a little bit less or more (within reason).

    With that being said, the smaller details in diet and exercise aren't going to matter as much. Once you've reached your genetic potential (which should be easy), you can take all the supplements you want, but you aren't going to grow anymore, of course unless you take steroids. That's why they call it a "genetic" potential, because its what you can achieve naturally (without drugs). The same thing goes for diet. You can go low carbs and take all the diet pills you want, but the fat isn't going to go away until you cut the calories.

    It really is that simple folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. They had ripped and strong guys 100 years ago, and probably even 100,000 years ago! We've probably done the best since the invention of the barbell, but other than that I highly doubt anything else has changed over the last 100 years, except perhaps the invention of steroids.

  4. #14
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    info...lovin this guys, please keep it com,ing because it is helping me understand it.

    but how much training and at what level warrants carbs? and at what point will it balance out the hormones, leptin, ghrelin, insulin and cortisol?

  5. #15
    bdilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    info...lovin this guys, please keep it com,ing because it is helping me understand it.

    but how much training and at what level warrants carbs? and at what point will it balance out the hormones, leptin, ghrelin, insulin and cortisol?
    An answer to that hormone question could get a little too biochemical for this forum. It's a complex interplay of chemical reactions catalyzed by the food you eat, the way you live, and the exercise you get... the only answer you really need to know if that if you are eating properly (IE paleo/primal) and exercising and moving often, your body will naturally express itself (hormone release etc) the way it is supposed to.

    For reducing fasting insulin levels, however, refer to the study I posted above on IF's effects on insulin secretion...

    As for your carbs? I don't really know what you're asking. Just eat a sweet potato after your workout with your protein source. Pretty simple.
    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

  6. #16
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    Why are carbs so important after a workout when you IF?

  7. #17
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    carbs are NON ESSENTIAL nutrients.

    bit lost too

  8. #18
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    The muscles are fueled by glycogen, so it seems backward to eat it after the workout.
    As I understand it the purpose is to replenish the stores in the muscles which may have become depleted after an intense workout? Personally I find the IF eating pattern works well for me as I find it easier to eat healthily with this pattern. If it helps the workouts too then that is a bonus.

    I'm also interested in the scientific basis (if any) for BCAAs. I do take them, as they are cheap enough, not sure if they really help though as I am new to weight training and have never done it without them.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    carbs are NON ESSENTIAL nutrients.

    bit lost too
    Here we go...

  10. #20
    Ripped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    info...lovin this guys, please keep it com,ing because it is helping me understand it.

    but how much training and at what level warrants carbs? and at what point will it balance out the hormones, leptin, ghrelin, insulin and cortisol?
    Since your body has the ability to store the carbs as glycogen, I would think it wouldn't matter so much. You won't deplete your stores unless you eat nearly zero carbs or get involved with a lot of activity. If you run out you'll know it when you hit the wall!

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