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  1. #11
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    This is the best thread ever! Gives me hope. I know exactly what you mean about 'Grok' and 'cavemen', I never, ever start a conversation off with those! I think a lot of people stumble across Mark's Daily Apple after they are open to the idea of ancestral eating and see the flaws in eating industrial processed foods.

    One universal truth you can tell every patient: "Drastically cut your intake of processed seed oils, flour, and sugar" Define seed oils as corn, canola, soybean, peanut, and cottonseed oil. Define flour as white, wheat, whole-grain or not. Define sugar as table sugar, brown sugar, and high fructose corn syrup. Eliminating these 3 things takes about 75% of processed foods off the table and most will see dramatic improvements in health.


    I like to direct people to The Weston A. Price Foundation - Weston A Price Foundation , part of their mission statement:

    The Foundation is dedicated to restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education, research and activism. It supports a number of movements that contribute to this objective including accurate nutrition instruction, organic and biodynamic farming, pasture-feeding of livestock, community-supported farms, honest and informative labeling, prepared parenting and nurturing therapies. Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean, certified raw milk and a ban on the use of soy formula for infants.

    Part of their dietary guidelines:

    Eat whole, natural foods.
    Eat only foods that will spoil, but eat them before they do.
    Eat naturally-raised meat including fish, seafood, poultry, beef, lamb, game, organ meats and eggs.
    Eat whole, naturally-produced milk products from pasture-fed cows, preferably raw and/or fermented, such as whole yogurt, cultured butter, whole cheeses and fresh and sour cream.
    Use only traditional fats and oils including butter and other animal fats, extra virgin olive oil, expeller expressed sesame and flax oil and the tropical oilsócoconut and palm.
    Last edited by otzi; 10-21-2012 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #12
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    I recently had to complete an intake form to see a personal trainer. It had questions about my diet. Fearing any kind of argument about fads or cavemen, I simply put "Paleo diet/Mediterranean Diet" as what I ate. I was all ready to explain what I meant as I eat a Mediterranean diet with some of the paleo suggestions of no grains, no sugar. I eat lentils but avoid beans since they give me gas if not cooked right, and the only grains I eat are small amounts of rice and wild rice. I use olive oil rather than coconut oil and way more seafood than meat, but I don't avoid meat, just find beef and lamb expensive. Fortunately for me there was no discussion. The trainer said, "Good. Paleo and Mediterranean. I bet your cholesterol has greatly improved."

    I like how the Mediterranean diet is explained here: Phil Maffetone, www.philmaffetone.com - Mediterr diet It is too bad that the term has been polluted with ideas of bread and pasta. I feel for you in finding a good term to describe this way of eating, one that doesn't carry so much baggage.
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  3. #13
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    First of all it's awesome to have a doc make a post like you did. All of mine have been pill pushers. Gives me hope there might be a few more like you out there. I never got into the whole Grok/caveman thing other than it's a cute little metaphor to be used in jest. I'm sure some take it more seriously, but most don't I think. Paleo eating to me can be boiled down very simply without ever using the words paleo, primal, pre-agriculture, caveman or anything else that's likely to turn off modern man. Tell them to eat lean meats (with a brief/easy explanation that some animal fat is ok), veggies, fruits and nuts. Bam! That's it. Of course we know it's a bit more complicated than that but it's a darn good start getting somebody down the road. Problem I see is most people look at that as a boring diet. "What, I can't have my beans, my rice, my pasta, my cookies, my toast, my whatever....???" That and you're battling over a 1/2 century of governments and scientists telling us about the food pyramid, grains, caloric intake and how bad bacon grease and butter are for you. So it's an uphill battle IMO, but it's great to see you thinking about it!
    Last edited by shep68; 10-21-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  4. #14
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    Interesting thread.

    There is some empirical articles against wheat over on Robb Wolf's forum here:

    Robb Wolf | Performance, Health & Longevity Forum • View topic - Wheat and Empirical Data

    I don't know if that is any help.

    I know that the 'your ancestors didn't eat that way' argument might not be scientifically provable (and I'm thinking of that biochemist that one of the earlier posters included - I've see that before) but I still wouldn't totally disregard it on this ground. It makes logical sense to me that we are more adapted to palo foods - or at least the modern equivalents/the composition of higher protein and fats vs processed carbs. Though I do agree with others that there might be a better 'sell' to it than that - or you could casually drop a little 'this is also what humans might be better adapted to' line in after the easier sell of 'cut out processed' foods etc, etc, you know what I mean. Good luck.

  5. #15
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    I think that the grok, primal and paleo are all ridiculous terms. I don't eat like a cave man. I eat whole foods. I don't eat grains, sugar, seed oils etc. I think most people would be happier and healthier even if all they did was ditch processed crap, soda and fast food.

    I struggle to understand why people think primal and paleo is so hard. It isn't. I am a MAJOR foodie. It is so easy to eat primal. I was at a concert festival- BBQ plate with collards- boom, primal meal. No 20% needed. Dinner out? Duck with a potato gratin. I could have subbed sauted spinach- boom, primal. It's not that hard. It's not that boring. Tonight is chicken with 40 cloves of garlic and green beans.

    What is BORING and hard to stick to is fat free. I think most people try and take fat free, drop the grains and call it primal/paleo. It is hard and boring to eat low fat with no grains and sugar, but people are programmed to leave out the fat. Green beans with bacon and hazelnuts are MUCH MORE delicious than plain rice. But you know, people don't understand they can have the fat. The only reason people like the rice and bread or whatnot is because it is the most pleasurable part of a low fat diet.

    I'd say eat whole, real foods that are one ingredient. Add in some good fats- olive oil, bacon, butter. Take out wheat and sugar. Feel free to eat real meats with fat (so pitch the soy).

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  6. #16
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    I second Neckhammer's suggestion of looking at the Archevore diet.

    One of the things that strikes me about both the Archevore diet and Primal Blueprint is that it's not just about "diet". Both also include reducing stress, getting reasonable activity, and getting enough sleep. Neither is really a "diet", but are nutritional guidelines to adopt for the rest of your life.

    When you're trying to educate your patients, it might make more sense and sound less like a fad if you include all the lifestyle recommendations. Using the word "diet" immediately makes people think of restricting themselves, and "exercise" usually brings to mind the monotony of hours on a treadmill. Most people will swear to "eat less and exercise more", especially if they're in the middle of a medical emergency, but those kinds of promises usually end up like New Year's resolutions... followed for a week or two, and then abandoned.

    If you can give them the guidelines for a sustainable plan that isn't the extreme "eat less and exercise more" you might have more success at getting the message across.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    I think that the grok, primal and paleo are all ridiculous terms. I don't eat like a cave man. I eat whole foods. I don't eat grains, sugar, seed oils etc. I think most people would be happier and healthier even if all they did was ditch processed crap, soda and fast food.

    I struggle to understand why people think primal and paleo is so hard. It isn't. I am a MAJOR foodie. It is so easy to eat primal. I was at a concert festival- BBQ plate with collards- boom, primal meal. No 20% needed. Dinner out? Duck with a potato gratin. I could have subbed sauted spinach- boom, primal. It's not that hard. It's not that boring. Tonight is chicken with 40 cloves of garlic and green beans.

    What is BORING and hard to stick to is fat free. I think most people try and take fat free, drop the grains and call it primal/paleo. It is hard and boring to eat low fat with no grains and sugar, but people are programmed to leave out the fat. Green beans with bacon and hazelnuts are MUCH MORE delicious than plain rice. But you know, people don't understand they can have the fat. The only reason people like the rice and bread or whatnot is because it is the most pleasurable part of a low fat diet.

    I'd say eat whole, real foods that are one ingredient. Add in some good fats- olive oil, bacon, butter. Take out wheat and sugar. Feel free to eat real meats with fat (so pitch the soy).
    I agree with this. As I reread my post maybe I didn't emphasize enough about fats, but to me that's one of the hardest "sells" because we are all so programmed into thinking a certain way about a modern diet. I don't find primal eating to be boring either, but before I did the research and really looked into it I thought it sounded hard and boring too. My thoughts are easing patients towards the basic principles (meats/veggies/fruits), and if they show any interest hit them with the nuts and bolts.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    I struggle to understand why people think primal and paleo is so hard. It isn't. I am a MAJOR foodie. It is so easy to eat primal.
    Yes and no.

    If you already have a laundry list of foods that you can't eat, it can really suck.

    I already can't eat bacon or any of the "fun" meats like that, anything more than an incredbly small amount of chocolate (no dark at all), wine or anything made with wine (including marinated or in a sauce) or commercially dried fruit. Start Primal, and now (in addition to the above) I also can't eat wheat (or most grains including corn), seed oils, soy, sugar or artificial anything. I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting.

    That means all of the stuff that everyone else in pretty much every group (CW, SAD, Primal) sees as their "Oh well, at least I can still have this..." treat is off limits for me.

    I'm really not trying to be whiny, but when you have food intolerances on top of Primal, it can make you a little crazy. Throw in low carb when I'm frustrated and end up binging and gaining weight, and now you have a crazy, bitchy lady that just wants the %$&@ donut, preferrably NOW!
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  9. #19
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    RitaRose, that sucks, but probably for 95% of people, they'd be fine. For me this has been MUCH easier than vegan or veg, as well as low fat. It sounds like you are having a really hard time. Have you tried any other options like South Beach or Mediterranean? If you are that unhappy, and gaining weight, how can this be sustainable? I don't know, maybe there is a better option for you that allows for an easier life.

    God knows I spent 20 years beating my head against a wall avoiding meat. Maybe you should be eating some grains and maybe sugar would work for you in the context of a whole foods diet. I don't know, but switching to primal was a light bulb that said
    "this is how I should eat". Maybe your body needs a different program?

    We spend a lot of time eliminating foods, maybe at some point it makes sense to examine adding in other foods if we aren't having success. I'm not saying go eat hohos and oreos, but who knows, maybe adding in some oatmeal or couscous or whatever random thing would be a net positive?

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    RitaRose, that sucks, but probably for 95% of people, they'd be fine. For me this has been MUCH easier than vegan or veg, as well as low fat. It sounds like you are having a really hard time. Have you tried any other options like South Beach or Mediterranean? If you are that unhappy, and gaining weight, how can this be sustainable? I don't know, maybe there is a better option for you that allows for an easier life.

    God knows I spent 20 years beating my head against a wall avoiding meat. Maybe you should be eating some grains and maybe sugar would work for you in the context of a whole foods diet. I don't know, but switching to primal was a light bulb that said
    "this is how I should eat". Maybe your body needs a different program?

    We spend a lot of time eliminating foods, maybe at some point it makes sense to examine adding in other foods if we aren't having success. I'm not saying go eat hohos and oreos, but who knows, maybe adding in some oatmeal or couscous or whatever random thing would be a net positive?
    A lot of it is the lack of impulse control (head injuries) which leads to eating junk, which leads to me craving junk, which leads to me craving more junk. And then, even when I don't eat junk (which is incredibly hard), then there's no difference. And I can't treat myself with some bacon or a glass of wine or some dark chocolate, so then I have a pity party and "Hello donuts!"

    I'm trying to be really strict right now (a whole 2 days now) and then, when I'm back to where I should be, I'll start trying to add things back in. Bottom line - don't hit your head, especially multiple times.

    Okay, whining over. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
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