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  1. #41
    sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    So If I'm on a ketogenic diet, I can have as much fruit, vegetables and starches with my meal as I want?
    Fruit, vegetables and starches (which you assume are 100% off-limits on a ketogenic diet) are in fact some of the blander options out there. When I think of things that are not bland, I think of things like garlic, mustard, onions, liver, kidneys, bacon, horseradish, chili peppers, salsa, seafood, limes and lemons, wine, sauces, spices etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You are restricting roughly half the foods available to you in nature.
    Half the foods in nature? Are you kidding? I eat the same exact foods whether I eat ketogenically or higher in carbohydrates. I just eat more of the carbohydrates in one setting and more of the fats in the other. Nothing is eliminated.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Important note: the ONLY reason why ketosis seems to accelerate fat loss is there is very, very little food reward to a ketogenic diet. There is only so much steak and eggs to eat. Without a starch or vegetable, it makes eating not very palatable. This leads to a reduction of food because, frankly, it's not a very tasty diet. This all comes down to a caloric deficit, and if ketosis is working for your weight loss, it's solely because food has become more bland and boring and you're consuming less of it.

    If you are going to be miserable eating a ketogenic diet because you love fruits and vegetables, don't do it. A miserable diet is not sustainable. Find what works for you so you can stick to it for life, and if you increase carbohydrate, remember to reduce fat in kind or it'll just wind up increasing your calorie intake.
    BULLSHIT


    nothin but love for you man, and I have eaten steak and eggs for almost 2 years now and it never gets old.


    Steak with salt and pepper

    steak with paprika and garlic

    steak with lemon and lavander

    Steak never gets old.

    NEEVAH
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocotaco369 View Post
    1.) weight loss and gain is entirely caloric. You cannot gain weight without consuming an energy surplus. You cannot lose weight without an energy deficit. There is no metabolic advantage to different macronutrient ratios for solely weight loss. This is a fact and not an oversimplification. It just really is that simple.

    ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets | bodyrecomposition - the home of lyle mcdonald

    how we get fat | bodyrecomposition - the home of lyle mcdonald

    the sensible middle part 1 in defence of calories | core concepts wellness

    finally, a study that proves a low-carb metabolic advantage? Yeah, right… « anthonycolpo

    new swedish low-carb study: Another load of epidemi-hogwash « anthonycolpo

    another weight loss study showing compliance is more important than diet type « anthonycolpo

    whole health source: Calories and carbohydrate: A natural experiment

    2.) ketogenic diets will only work due to one reason: Calorie restriction. If you are losing weight on a ketogenic diet faster than any other kind of diet, it can only be because you are maintaining a different greater calorie deficit. This could be for several reasons:

    A.) you find the food to be more filling, so you eat less of it.
    B.) there are less choices and therefore you are less interested in food as a whole.
    C.) the food doesn't taste as good, so you don't want to eat as much.

    This is such a brilliant article.

    cheat day strategies for a hedonist | intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health



    and that, ladies and gentlemen, is why a ketogenic diet works for some people. The limited food choices make people less obsessed with food since they don't feel the need to "try everything on the table," the overall blandness of the diet discourages overconsumption and the invariably greater intake of meat and very fibrous vegetables leads to slower digestion and increased satiety. which allows for a more easily maintained calorie deficit.

    it's that simple. ( for most people who just need to shut their cake hole )
    ftfy
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmc View Post
    Well I am thinking of a diet that allows dairy, but even without you're exaggerating quite a bit suggesting you can only eat steak, eggs, and spinach. Whenever I've done it it's basically been primal minus tubers.

    Just as people take 'sad' foods and make them primal, you can pretty much make anything keto too. It's got the same double-eged sword thing going on that primal does. I check the keto reddit sometimes and some recipes are absolutely amazing. So sure there is some satiety mechanism (or just self control) helping those people eat less and lose weight, but it needn't be the blandness of their food. If anything, I think keto food is hyper-palatable. Even when you're not going for faux-something.
    Dairy is a very small portion of the foods available - probably the smallest portion of any "food group." In addition, you are only allowed small quantities of non-lactose dairy. Most ketogenic diets only allow <2 oz of no-lactose cheese as it is. Tiny amounts of select dairy does not sound like much of a splurge.

    I'm not exaggerating at all. I tried it for 7 weeks. It's awful and I'd carb binge like mad on the weekends because I did a CKD. The only people exaggerating are the people saying it isn't restrictive. It's far more restrictive than, say, vegetarian or vegan diets, and I'm assuming most of you would think that's pretty damn restrictive.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by quelsen View Post
    BULLSHIT


    nothin but love for you man, and I have eaten steak and eggs for almost 2 years now and it never gets old.


    Steak with salt and pepper

    steak with paprika and garlic

    steak with lemon and lavander

    Steak never gets old.

    NEEVAH
    That's good that you can maintain a food intake that limited. It will really help you maintain leanness for the rest of your life since it's difficult to binge on those foods. Again, as food choices increase, typically so do daily calories. If the overwhelming majority of foods do not hold any appeal to you, or you consider them "off limits" for certain reasons, that will really help keep your food in check. Most people cannot do this, which is why most diets fail. People can't maintain the feeling of restriction for long enough, and they binge.

    I love steak and eggs. They are two of my most consumed foods. I would love some right now. But if you made me eat nothing but steak and eggs, I would last maybe 2-3 days before I freaked out and drove 100 mph to an ice cream stand. Ok, THAT was an exaggeration, but I'd be miserable. And so would most.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #46
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    We can all only speak for ourselves--although some on this thread seem to think that their experience is universal.

    Only speaking for myself, I happen to be extremely carb sensitive. In the past few years, I've lost close to 200 lbs by eating very low carb consistently because my 'limit' is about 25g carbs a day. Dr. Atkins proposed something he called a 'Critical Carb Level' for people like me. We 'test' our limits in 5g increments until our raging appetite returns and we begin to lose weight. I discovered this principle in 1972, when he first published. I tested myself at that time, and at intervals throughout the years. My CCL remains at about 25g.

    This is due to a metabolic dysfunction (according to Dr. A), but the positive aspect of it is that having stayed low carb for the past 5+ years, I have never felt better in my life--nor been healthier. At age 71, I take no Rx meds (my thyroid pills are supplemental hormones, and my doctor says they don't count as 'meds'). My rather severe osteoarthritis is controlled by diet and exercise--no meds. Because I'm hypothyroid, I have regular blood tests to check my hormone levels, and my endo usually runs a full blood panel--all my numbers are superb, as is my BP and blood glucose.

    I'm sure that others would be 'bored' or 'driven to carbs' by my WOE which is mainly fish, meat (mainly grass-fed bison & beef), and eggs (mainly egg whites to avoid the inflammatory effects of yolks). I have vegetables in small amounts. However, this way of eating is probably satisfying because of my unique metabolic situation--i.e., having found what foods are best suited to me, I have absolutely no desire to eat otherwise.

    For example, I love ice cream, and there are times that I miss it. But what keeps me from eating it is how I know I will feel in the hours and days that follow---and feeling dreadful isn't worth the momentary satisfaction that I would derive from Haagen Daz.

    I know that there are others like me. Some have difficulty becoming resigned to the need to limit carbs, but being carb sensitive is the reason many regain lost weight when they assume they can then return to the SAD.

    So in considering how anyone stays in ketosis--my point is that's a questions that depends on the person's CCL. Few people need to eat as low carb as I do, but no one can assume that their most comfortable carb level applies to everyone else.

  7. #47
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    If you really only ate steak, eggs, and spinach doing keto then you were eating way more restricted than you had too.

    Even if we're talking technicalities like limits on dairy and protein (which will vary from person to person, right?) there are so many other animal bits to eat beside steak. Pork (bacon?). Fowl. Seafood. Avocados. Most vegetables. Cooked in lots of delicious fat, seasoned as you would under any other circumstances. Hell, CHOCOLATE. Melt a baking bar and sweeten it with stevia. Bake some jicama fries. Have some nuts.

    You really only ate steak, eggs, and spinach? Your blog and the stuff you post on this site is amazing food porn. I almost don't believe you.

    : )

  8. #48
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    Here's a quote from The Fat of the Land.
    It has been considered strange by some...that extravagant praise of fat occurs neither in the usual conversation nor in the folk tales of Eskimos. The animals they hunt are usually so fat that when they have secured all the lean meat they need they have on hand more fat than they can use; so when they have eaten all they want there is enough fat left over for fuel and light. And as I keep saying in this book, it makes no difference how fond one is of fat, he is bound to turn against it as soon as he has had all that is good for him. Of all foods, fat is preeminently the one where enough is enough.
    On a page or two directly before this quote Stefansson has charts showing a steady rise in sugar consumption since the 1700s. By the 1940s it's almost 100lbs per person per year and doesn't include hidden sugars or honey. At the same time, there is a rise in fat consumption.

    But Eskimos living off the land in the early 1900s on their traditional diet eat boiled meat and fat from caribou, sea mammals, fish and birds and they don't get tired of it, they are not fat (except sadly the women over 40 tend to gain some weight), they have no bad teeth even though they do not brush their teeth and when this white dude adopts their diet he is happy and healthy on it, doesn't think it is bland or boring or anything. They also do not go hungry, frequently having to discard large bags of unwanted leftover animal fat.

    There's seriously a lot to learn from the old literature. There definitely IS an advantage to eating what humans ate in the wild and there definitely IS a disadvantage to eating cereal grains and sugar. It may not be so much about the calories as about matching the species correctly to its diet.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
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  9. #49
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    Assuming we are discussing a ketogenic diet for weight loss, any and everything can be incorporated depending on the creativity of the dieter. 25 g of carbs for induction is fine. For long term keto dieters, many can easily incorporate more carbs into their eating plan while maintaining a state of ketosis. Also, ketosis is the result of low CHO intake, not the result of high fat intake. A PSMF is also a ketogenic diet.
    Well, there is a statement that high protein intake interferes with the ketosis as well as high carbohydrate intake. The numbers that were calculated for me in the 'eat more fat!' thread for a good ketonic plan was initially 25 g net carb, 60 g protein; the protein thanks goodness was bumped up to 90 g when my activity level was taken into an account.

    I ate like that for a month.

    I lost initially, but in the end I regained, i.e. I did not lose anything. I mostly subsisted on macadamia nuts & coconut products, butter, cheese, a couple of eggs, celery, spinach and cauliflower with a small piece of fish or meat for supper (SPLURGE!) and broth. I have only realized how deeply fatigued & weak I was after I carbed up this weekend. Conclusions: for me it's not workable to sustain ketosis.

    But not because of the food choices.

    I can maintain this WOE, but I can't say it was extremely variable. Again, if you are not restricting for protein and your carbohydrate allocation is higher, it will be much easier, but there is still very low volume of food volumetrically.

    However, even with this restricted choices, overeating is a no brainer. 2 oz of macadamia nuts fly by quick with the morning coffee. Butter is easy to overeat, let alone cheese. And once we are into combining the best of the both worlds, nut butters are made for sitting there with your small spoon, and having foodgasm every time it touches your tongue. In non-treats world, literally pounds of broiled fresh sockeye salmon can make its way from my plate to my stomach day after day with no consequences. Same goes for roast chicken. I had to freeze pieces so they do not tempt me.

    There are things on ANY diet that I can eat in crazy quantities. You can limit me with any macros and conditions, and I will still find something I can eat endlessly. I guess, I agree with Choco here: the trick is shutting the hatch.
    Last edited by Leida; 10-22-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Well, there is a statement that high protein intake interferes with the ketosis as well as high carbohydrate intake. The numbers that were calculated for me in the 'eat more fat!' thread for a good ketonic plan was initially 25 g net carb, 60 g protein; the protein thanks goodness was bumped up to 90 g when my activity level was taken into an account.

    I ate like that for a month.

    I lost initially, but in the end I regained, i.e. I did not lose anything. I mostly subsisted on macadamia nuts & coconut products, butter, cheese, a couple of eggs, celery, spinach and cauliflower with a small piece of fish or meat for supper (SPLURGE!) and broth. I have only realized how deeply fatigued & weak I was after I carbed up this weekend. Conclusions: for me it's not workable to sustain ketosis.

    But not because of the food choices.

    I can maintain this WOE, but I can't say it was extremely variable. Again, if you are not restricting for protein and your carbohydrate allocation is higher, it will be much easier, but there is still very low volume of food volumetrically.

    However, even with this restricted choices, overeating is a no brainer. 2 oz of macadamia nuts fly by quick with the morning coffee. Butter is easy to overeat, let alone cheese. And once we are into combining the best of the both worlds, nut butters are made for sitting there with your small spoon, and having foodgasm every time it touches your tongue. In non-treats world, literally pounds of broiled fresh sockeye salmon can make its way from my plate to my stomach day after day with no consequences. Same goes for roast chicken. I had to freeze pieces so they do not tempt me.

    There are things on ANY diet that I can eat in crazy quantities. You can limit me with any macros and conditions, and I will still find something I can eat endlessly. I guess, I agree with Choco here: the trick is shutting the hatch.
    As with any diet, the results are going to vary with the individual. I think that was the whole point with Choco's statement being thought of as opinion. It's always helpful to hear how others fare with the different diet approaches. As demonstrated throughout this thread, there are a lot of different ways to go about following a ketogenic diet and it does take effort to diversify this style of eating to include a variety of meals (although not necessary).
    Having followed a ketogenic diet for over four years, I've learned to create keto versions of my favorite meals and snacks to satisfy cravings. The success came over time and was certainly frustrating in the beginning because I approached it also believing it was restrictive. I personally do not favor a CKD or SKD and find cravings difficult to manage. The TKD was much more easy to adhere to partly because of energy levels and daily diversity in food choices. Aside from the monthly hormonal changes, a higher fat intake keeps my cravings from becoming uncontrollable.

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