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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoanieL View Post
    CICO assumption: If you eat 3500 calories more than you use over time, you’ll gain one pound. And conversely, if you eat 3500 calories less than you use over time, you’ll lose one pound.

    Based on some of the calorie calculators around the web, it takes approximately 1890 calories per day for a 200 pound sedentary woman age 55 to maintain her weight. That would be 58,590 calories in a 31 day month.
    That is not an assumption of CICO. That is your assumption. CICO simply means you have to have an energy deficit to lose weight and an energy surplus to gain weight. That is fact.

    Your math is all wrong because according to CICO, if you overeat 100 calories a day, you will gain weight - until that becomes your new maintenance - which happens rather quickly. Then, you will only gain weight if you further continue increase calories. This makes the entire rest of your post incorrect, which is why your math doesn't work out to reality.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawyerchick12 View Post
    I disagree with Choco on his argument that it is the "blandness" of Ketogenic diets that make people lose weight.
    You're missing the point. Ketogenic diets are very limited in food choices - when you compare them to a diet that limits nothing. You may actually enjoy the foods you're eating on a ketogenic diet. It is still a very limited diet and blander than a diet that restricts nothing.

    Therefore, a ketogenic diet is blander than a low-carb diet, and a low-carb diet is blander than a diet that restricts no macros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You're missing the point. Ketogenic diets are very limited in food choices - when you compare them to a diet that limits nothing. You may actually enjoy the foods you're eating on a ketogenic diet. It is still a very limited diet and blander than a diet that restricts nothing.

    Therefore, a ketogenic diet is blander than a low-carb diet, and a low-carb diet is blander than a diet that restricts no macros.
    A ketogenic diet does not "restrict" any food. A ketogenic diet moderates carb intake. So as stated, one can eat an apple and follow a ketogenic diet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You're missing the point. Ketogenic diets are very limited in food choices - when you compare them to a diet that limits nothing. You may actually enjoy the foods you're eating on a ketogenic diet. It is still a very limited diet and blander than a diet that restricts nothing.

    Therefore, a ketogenic diet is blander than a low-carb diet, and a low-carb diet is blander than a diet that restricts no macros.
    But restricting certain foods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with blandness with respect to palatability. Why do you think it's the case that the food that's left is less tasty? Maybe you could call the choices 'bland' since there are fewer of them (yet still not few choices), but I think most people will report the opposite feeling. Maybe people eat less on them, but that's not because the food is boring.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by anelae22 View Post
    A ketogenic diet does not "restrict" any food. A ketogenic diet moderates carb intake. So as stated, one can eat an apple and follow a ketogenic diet.
    So If I'm on a ketogenic diet, I can have as much fruit, vegetables and starches with my meal as I want? Or must I only be allowed a certain amount or under to stay in that state? Am I counting and restricting something or am I free to eat blindly? Can I make my dinner be a chicken breast, a large sweet potato, some white rice and two bananas from dessert? I can easily eat that in a meal without issue and they all fit into a Primal eating plan.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 10-22-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmc View Post
    But restricting certain foods doesn't necessarily have anything to do with blandness with respect to palatability. Why do you think it's the case that the food that's left is less tasty? Maybe you could call the choices 'bland' since there are fewer of them (yet still not few choices), but I think most people will report the opposite feeling. Maybe people eat less on them, but that's not because the food is boring.
    You are restricting roughly half the foods available to you in nature. You are adhering to an extremely low count of carbohydrate. That means over half the food pyramid is off limits. Maybe you can survive on just steak, eggs and spinach. Maybe you actually would enjoy it because those are your three favorite foods. It's still a comparatively bland diet. Did you read any of those links? It's the adherence of a diet that often determines success, and if you can adhere to a ketogenic diet, it's typically successful because of very limited food choices. Go to a buffet, a potluck or a restaurant and try to find something to eat. As it is now, I find at least 50% of the menu is off limits to begin with due to grains. A ketogenic diet knocks off 90% in many cases. Don't forget you have to limit meat consumption as well because if you pass the 2g/lb lean body mass threshold (or significantly less if you don't lift weights), you're probably converting the protein into enough glucose to knock you out of ketosis.

    It's the most restrictive diet I've ever tried by far.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You are restricting roughly half the foods available to you in nature. You are adhering to an extremely low count of carbohydrate. That means over half the food pyramid is off limits. Maybe you can survive on just steak, eggs and spinach. Maybe you actually would enjoy it because those are your three favorite foods. It's still a comparatively bland diet. Did you read any of those links? It's the adherence of a diet that often determines success, and if you can adhere to a ketogenic diet, it's typically successful because of very limited food choices. Go to a buffet, a potluck or a restaurant and try to find something to eat. As it is now, I find at least 50% of the menu is off limits to begin with due to grains. A ketogenic diet knocks off 90% in many cases. Don't forget you have to limit meat consumption as well because if you pass the 2g/lb lean body mass threshold (or significantly less if you don't lift weights), you're probably converting the protein into enough glucose to knock you out of ketosis.

    It's the most restrictive diet I've ever tried by far.
    Well I am thinking of a diet that allows dairy, but even without you're exaggerating quite a bit suggesting you can only eat steak, eggs, and spinach. Whenever I've done it it's basically been primal minus tubers.

    Just as people take 'sad' foods and make them primal, you can pretty much make anything keto too. It's got the same double-eged sword thing going on that primal does. I check the keto reddit sometimes and some recipes are absolutely amazing. So sure there is some satiety mechanism (or just self control) helping those people eat less and lose weight, but it needn't be the blandness of their food. If anything, I think keto food is hyper-palatable. Even when you're not going for faux-something.

  8. #38
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    A ketogenic diet does not "restrict" any food. A ketogenic diet moderates carb intake. So as stated, one can eat an apple and follow a ketogenic diet.
    A slice, maybe, and that is not recommended, because... some very complicated reasons that involve many other complicated reasons. Fruit is a no-no when you are trying to go into ketosis. Also, good quality ketosis limits proteins rather severely as well as carbs, which makes ketonic eating a daily challenge, particularly if you try to set caloric limit low. I found that protein limit is actually harder than the do not eat fruit clause and the stay under 25 g of carbs clause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    So If I'm on a ketogenic diet, I can have as much fruit, vegetables and starches with my meal as I want? Or must I only be allowed a certain amount or under to stay in that state? Am I counting and restricting something or am I free to eat blindly? Can I make my dinner be a chicken breast, a large sweet potato, some white rice and two bananas from dessert? I can easily eat that in a meal without issue and they all fit into a Primal eating plan.
    If you are on a ketogenic diet you can have any of the above. 'Restriction' and 'quantity' are not the same so blandness is not an issue as you had stated. It appears you misunderstood my statement of carbs being modified rather than restricted.
    As a personal choice, I'd prefer coconut-curry chicken breast, spiced rice with raisins, a sweet potato hashbrown and banana pudding. Without a doubt, it can be keto, Primal and not bland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    A slice, maybe, and that is not recommended, because... some very complicated reasons that involve many other complicated reasons. Fruit is a no-no when you are trying to go into ketosis. Also, good quality ketosis limits proteins rather severely as well as carbs, which makes ketonic eating a daily challenge, particularly if you try to set caloric limit low. I found that protein limit is actually harder than the do not eat fruit clause and the stay under 25 g of carbs clause.
    Assuming we are discussing a ketogenic diet for weight loss, any and everything can be incorporated depending on the creativity of the dieter. 25 g of carbs for induction is fine. For long term keto dieters, many can easily incorporate more carbs into their eating plan while maintaining a state of ketosis. Also, ketosis is the result of low CHO intake, not the result of high fat intake. A PSMF is also a ketogenic diet.

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