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  1. #11
    Misabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Important note: the ONLY reason why ketosis seems to accelerate fat loss is there is very, very little food reward to a ketogenic diet. There is only so much steak and eggs to eat. Without a starch or vegetable, it makes eating not very palatable. This leads to a reduction of food because, frankly, it's not a very tasty diet. This all comes down to a caloric deficit, and if ketosis is working for your weight loss, it's solely because food has become more bland and boring and you're consuming less of it.

    If you are going to be miserable eating a ketogenic diet because you love fruits and vegetables, don't do it. A miserable diet is not sustainable. Find what works for you so you can stick to it for life, and if you increase carbohydrate, remember to reduce fat in kind or it'll just wind up increasing your calorie intake.
    I love the way you spout opinion as fact...

    I personally don't aim for ketosis, but find that my eating cycle takes me there occasionally. For nstance, at the moment sweet potatoes are very expensive due to floods wiping out half of this years crop. As they Are my usual mainstay carb source, just the plate of veggies I eat for at least two meals a day and several servings of fruit per day are plenty to keep my diet anything but miserable.

    Of course I may not be in deep ketosis, but I know when I'm excreting ketones in my breath and urine.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakey View Post
    you can eat an apple each and every day. you can eat an apple each and every day and lose weight. you can eat an apple each and every day and stay in ketosis. you can eat an apple each and every day and not worry about ketosis, since it's not necessary for weightloss. and finally, you can eat an apple each and every day, and eat too much other food, and not lose weight. so don't do that.
    Word, I have a large mango few days a week and still remain.

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    Reading everyone's responses has been helpful, and at times humerous. Many good points have been made. In my understanding, after 3 days or so around 50g of carbs your body begins to burn fat stores efficiently and will continue to do so in this range. I have acquaintances who claim no sugar at all which led me to inquire here having read marks book and I've been proactive to overcome some health issues. I feel great with a small amount of fruit and fresh vegetable juice. Without excessive calories in general, grains and starchy veg besides carrots I feel my weight loss will be effortless. I am enjoying an egg spinach and cottage cheese breakfast, homemade chicken soup for lunch with apple, and a basic dinner of protein and veggie. This seems easy and satisfying to maintain. When I workout, I may add 6oz of Greek yogurt and blueberries as a snack if needed. Carbs add up fast but it was the lactose and fruit sugars I was curious about. I will wait and see over the next few weeks. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodletoy View Post
    a serving of fage is 8 carbs. you'd need over 200 gms of blackberries to get up over 30 carbs. impressive!
    I don't eat Fage. I eat organic full fat yogurt. 12 grams of carbs in a cup. Cup of blueberries ia 21 grams of carbs. Actually not really impressive at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misabi View Post
    I love the way you spout opinion as fact...

    I personally don't aim for ketosis, but find that my eating cycle takes me there occasionally. For nstance, at the moment sweet potatoes are very expensive due to floods wiping out half of this years crop. As they Are my usual mainstay carb source, just the plate of veggies I eat for at least two meals a day and several servings of fruit per day are plenty to keep my diet anything but miserable.

    Of course I may not be in deep ketosis, but I know when I'm excreting ketones in my breath and urine.
    And exactly what point is opinion? That calories are the driver of weight loss and gain? Or that ketosis limits food choices and palatability? Because they are both facts.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #16
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    I think most people who eat a ketogenic diet don't find the wide selection of foods to be limited in palatability at all and a ketogenic diet does not eliminate a host of leafy greens and non starchy vegetables along with meats, fish and a variety of healthy fats.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    And exactly what point is opinion? That calories are the driver of weight loss and gain? Or that ketosis limits food choices and palatability? Because they are both facts.
    Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anelae22 View Post
    Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.
    Yup. Food reward is an opinion...a hypothesis with as many holes in it (actually I think more) as the insulin hypothesis. Neither are all encompassing, but both are working on it. I like Stanton's series on this if anybody is interested. Why Do We Ever Stop Eating? Taste, Reward, and Hyperpalatability (Why Are We Hungry? Part VII) - GNOLLS.ORG. From that ...

    "Lemmens et.al. demonstrates that eating delicious, highly “liked” food (food with high hedonic reward, aka “palatable” food) does not necessarily cause us to eat more. In fact, in their experiment, the subjects were less motivated to earn more food after eating the chocolate mousse than after the cottage cheese!" Not a ringing endorsement for the food palatability hypothesis.

  9. #19
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    I've been reading this book: http://www.owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf It's by Vihljalmur Stefansson, the guy who lived with eskimos in the very early 1900s and who went a year in a metabolic ward study eating only meat and water. It's really interesting. He did enjoy and even looked forward to all the meat he ate once he got used to the idea of not having variety in his diet. I don't think he would describe it as "low reward", but since he was living in an era before rampant overuse of MSG and MSG-like artificial flavorings, it probably was low reward. What's really amazing is that eating all the organs wasn't necessary. What's appalling is he ate and liked putrified fish.

    You can't get much simpler a plan than an all meat diet. If you want to add an apple, go ahead. He said that after a while, stuff like apples didn't really appeal to him anymore.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by anelae22 View Post
    Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.
    1.) Weight loss and gain is entirely caloric. You cannot gain weight without consuming an energy surplus. You cannot lose weight without an energy deficit. There is no metabolic advantage to different macronutrient ratios for solely weight loss. This is a fact and not an oversimplification. It just really is that simple.

    Ketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets have no Metabolic Advantage over Nonketogenic Low-carbohydrate diets | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

    How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

    The Sensible Middle Part 1 In Defence of Calories | Core Concepts Wellness

    Finally, a Study that Proves a Low-Carb Metabolic Advantage? Yeah, Right… AnthonyColpo

    New Swedish Low-Carb Study: Another Load of Epidemi-Hogwash AnthonyColpo

    Another Weight Loss Study Showing Compliance is More Important than Diet Type AnthonyColpo

    Whole Health Source: Calories and Carbohydrate: a Natural Experiment

    2.) Ketogenic diets will only work due to one reason: calorie restriction. If you are losing weight on a ketogenic diet faster than any other kind of diet, it can only be because you are maintaining a different greater calorie deficit. This could be for several reasons:

    a.) You find the food to be more filling, so you eat less of it.
    b.) There are less choices and therefore you are less interested in food as a whole.
    c.) The food doesn't taste as good, so you don't want to eat as much.

    This is such a brilliant article.

    Cheat Day Strategies For A Hedonist | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan
    4. Limit choices, not amounts.

    Studies show that when people are presented with multiple food-choices, they eat more. In fact, calorie intake during a buffet scales almost linearly with the amount of different foods to choose from. If I offered you unlimited amounts of turkey and cheesecake, you'd likely only eat so much of it before you felt "full" and satisfied.

    However, if I threw a third food into the mix, like potatoes or chocolate pudding, you'd end up eating a lot more - even if you weren't a fan of potatoes or chocolate pudding in normal circumstances. Humans are wired a bit funny and some behaviors are maladaptive in our environment of excesses. Having a taste of everything was a good strategy during our evolution, since it protected again micronutrient-deficiencies.

    By "mentally limiting" the food choices you allow yourself, i.e. only eating that which you absolutely love and crave, can be a very effective strategy in regulating calorie intake without feeling deprived. Remember, you don't need to taste of every damn food or treat that is offered. Stick to that which you truly enjoy eating and skip the rest.
    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why a ketogenic diet works for some people. The limited food choices make people less obsessed with food since they don't feel the need to "try everything on the table," the overall blandness of the diet discourages overconsumption and the invariably greater intake of meat and very fibrous vegetables leads to slower digestion and increased satiety. Which allows for a more easily maintained calorie deficit.

    It's that simple.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 10-21-2012 at 08:15 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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