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  1. #31
    statikcat's Avatar
    statikcat is offline Senior Member
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    How are people eating so many calories on gainers and not gaining fat along with the muscle? That always seems to be where I get stuck. I can't hardly eat that many calories a day if I tried but it might be because I have too much fat in my diet. I might try what Choco and others mention and try leaner meats and more quality carbs. I think this might help consume more calories for muscle without the downside of possible weight gain?

  2. #32
    JAWS's Avatar
    JAWS is offline Junior Member
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    Smile

    I would check out a carb backloading diet if you want to gain weight - and by weight I mean gain muscle. It is run through a guy named Dr. Keifer. I first heard about him on Dave Asprey's podcast Upgraded Self Seems legit, and I have tried it.

    While I don't like the mental/cognitive effects, if you eat good carbs (sweet potatoes, organic veggies, etc) than this diet is awesome! I am an ectomorph also, and finally found the diet for me....on my workout days.

    Check it out and tell me what you think.

  3. #33
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    First of all dont try and bulk up to quickly, you will only gain too much fat in the process. No more than a pound a week, and even that is pushing it unless you are genetically gifted.

    Alot of people are under the impression that you cant put on muscle without putting on some fat at the same time.
    IMO if you train and eat right you can put on muscle without the fat. Sure this process takes longer, but in the long run you will be healthier and you will look better.

    Lets put it this way im only 153lbs, but i am extremely vascular/ripped. People always assume im around 175lbs

    IMO 3 rules that have worked for me are (in terms of gaining strength/keeping body fat low/and gaining muscle)

    1) avoid eating lots of fats and carbs in the same meal. Choose either a high fat/low carb meal.... or high carb/low fat meal.
    2) have the higher fat/low carb meals before your training.... post workout go high carb/low fat.
    3)always have protein with every meal (choosing leaner meats post workout)

    I've put on 4-5 lbs of muscle in the last month using this approach. But i also train extremely heavy e.g. did 415lbs on the deadlift last weekend (and thats at a bodyweight of 153) add to that 10hrs of manual labour 5x week.

    This is roughly what i eat when trying to put on some muscle. Note; we get 2 breaks at work only 5-10 min. So a shake works perfect at this time.

    breakfast: Omelette (eggs/cheese/oysters/mushrooms and onions) coffee with heavy cream.

    snack: protein/muscle gain shake (milk/eggs/coconut milk/cream/stevia and cocoa or vanilla)

    lunch: steak or fish with a salad and 2 tbsp virgin olive oil or coconut oil.

    snack: shake (same)

    workout 30-45 min

    supper: any lean cut of meat/ potatoes and white rice/ salad/ berries

    late snack (sometimes, if i had an extra hard day at work) greek yogurt/scrambled egg/avocado.

    This has worked wonders for me and keeps me looking really vascular.
    High fat/ high protein during the day... and high carb/ high protein post workout.
    Again, you have to find what works for you. Personally for me eating fats gives me the sustained energy needed for my heavy job, carbs work as well but, i just seem to function better on fat as an energy source. Especially from all the MCT's from coconut products.

    Note; Arnold Schwarzenegger and most of the top bodybuilders of that era (and before) would eat like this. Lots of eggs/meat/cream/cottage cheese/milk etc was the staple during the day.. Then they would carb up post workout in the evening and depending on where they were with their training, some would only use the weekends to carb up.
    Last edited by sandokan2112; 10-20-2012 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    IMO, the huge problem with Mark's Primal Blueprint is his emphasis on fats and and his overall shunning of carbs. What matters is whole foods - a potato is just as healthy as an avocado. In fact, I am with Stephan Guyenet on this one - human life came from Equatorial regions, not the Arctic. The overwhelming majority of us are descendents of warm climates, which are noted for leaner game animals with plentiful starches and tubers. Look at current traditional societies that have not been Westernized - their staples are almost always carbohydrate based. It is NOT typical to find high fat traditional societies, but high carb is very, very common. This is a very interesting read.

    Whole Health Source: Clarifications About Carbohydrate and Insulin



    Think about it. Now, this doesn't make fat unhealthy - far from it - but I see the ideal human diet for most of us being plentiful in carbohydrate.

    The big problem is that carbohydrate gets demonized because people with metabolic syndrome can't process carbohydrate anymore. It was never caused by carbohydrate. Metabolic syndrome is caused by chronic inflammation, not spiking your insulin. And how do you get chronically inflamed? Eating a diet rich in grains, processed vegetable oils, processed sugars, thickeners, chemical sweeteners, preservatives, etc. It has nothing to do with carbohydrate. It's like blaming your pencil for spelling words wrong.


    Change things up. Drop your fats to the 50g range or so and start eating 300-400g of carbohydrate every day. Just make it from fruits, vegetables, tubers and the like, not from grains and refined sugars (though you can have some raw honey, organic maple syrup and blackstrap molasses in moderation). Focus on nutrient density. I feel far better eating leaner meats and carbohydrate than I do dropping carbs and eating fats. Fats are too calorically dense for me. I always overeat them before I feel full, and I get chubby fast eating them. Lean meats and starches, however, they fill me up fast and since carbs and protein isn't directly stored as fat, I maintain a much better body composition. I'm Italian - a Mediterranean climate by descent. Clearly, I am made for a more moderate approach and not a descendent of Nordics eating blubber.

    For what it's worth, I probably eat around 25-30% of my calories from fat, 30-35% calories from protein and 35-40% calories from carbohydrate. My workout days are probably 50-60% carbohydrate with <20% fat.
    I don't have any opinion concerning this issue, to be honest, I tend to find some interesting assumptions in both camps, I'll just what works best for me.

    But I think your advice about dropping fats to 50g is just plain stupid or even criminal.

    It is one of the stuff I did when my pituitary problem revealed itself, it even made the hormonal situation MUCH WORSE.
    50g is low fat. I won't do the same error again.
    You don't have to be extreme and eat 400g of carb and 50g of fat, my cholesterol induced production of many hormones just started to be better (pregnenolone for example) so no, sorry, I won't follow this kind of disgusting advice, thanks.
    Young self-caring Paleo-eater from France.
    (So please forgive the strange way I tend to express myself in your beautiful language )

  5. #35
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by statikcat View Post
    How are people eating so many calories on gainers and not gaining fat along with the muscle? That always seems to be where I get stuck. I can't hardly eat that many calories a day if I tried but it might be because I have too much fat in my diet. I might try what Choco and others mention and try leaner meats and more quality carbs. I think this might help consume more calories for muscle without the downside of possible weight gain?
    The way to gain muscle without much tag-along fat is to only overconsume calories right after a workout. If you're trying to lose weight and build muscle simultaneously, you're slightly undereating on all your meals, except your post-workout meals where you pig out. After a workout, your calories are mostly going towards building muscle, and as long as your deficit isn't too great during resting, you'll burn mostly fat. If your deficit is too great while resting, muscle loss is often an issue. Also, I've had much better putting on lean muscle post-workout overeating carbs and protein. Fat and I don't get along that well, unless I'm trying to put on insulation. YYMV.

    If you're having trouble consuming calories, cheat. Bake your starches to remove the water. You can eat a lot more baked sweet potato fries than you can moist whole baked sweet potatoes. You can eat a whole lot more applesauce than apples. Add honey, maple syrup or coconut sugar to things. Make homemade ice cream or homemade frozen yogurt. Just don't overdo it and pick quality sources. I wouldn't recommend after a workout chowing down on an entire half gallon of ice cream. I don't seem to have good luck combining lots of fat and sugar, but some people swear by it. You may tolerate it a lot better.

    A final note: when you gain wait, you'll always gain a combination of fat and muscle. When you lose weight, you'll always lose a combination of fat and muscle. However, using mild deficits when resting and moderate overfeeds post-workout using quality whole foods will give you the best losses/gains possible. People of different descents may have better luck with different fat/carb ratios.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 10-20-2012 at 01:36 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #36
    Groking Around's Avatar
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    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Please look into the renegade diet by Jason Ferruggia. While you're at it you're probably going to want to soak up as much info as you can from his site.

    The renegade diet has helped me out a lot, it's a combination of IF + carb backloading essentially with an over and under eating window that helps you lean out and stay lean (haven't done any physical activity at all in the past 2 months and I'm just as lean if not leaner, eat to satiety, etc. I just follow the basic principles).

    He also has some solid training programs targeted toward your TRUE HARDGAINER which is a skinny-fat person who tends to just gain equal fat/muscle and after cycles of cutting and bulking ends up in the same place.

    Honestly, I'm not affiliated with the guy at all but his books have helped changed my life when it comes to training and diet just as much as Mark so it's hard not to get a little excited.

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