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Thread: Can someone address the saturated fat issue again page 3

  1. #21
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    The Osteoporosis issue could be attributed to a number of factors, the hypothesis that high-protein diets favor the development of this disease is not as strongly correlated as high palmitic acid is to heart disease

    If you would address the other points about saturated fat down-regulating the LDL receptor that would also help, because there is a hypothesis that saturated fat causes heart disease and this is evidence to support the hypothesis.

    There are cardiologists who have reversed end-stage coronary artery disease(weeks to live) as evidenced using angiography, using very low-fat diets, does that support the hypothesis?


    The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity. You act as if it has already been proven to work in double-blind controlled experiments. It is still very much in the hypothetical stage, and when you have access to information about people who lived this VERSION of a paleo lifestyle then you need to review this data. If you're going to ignore it then you're not being very sound in reasoning.

    I'll need the studies you have to back up your hypothesis assertions. You haven't actually linked any of these experiments...in fact you haven't even linked the ones from your opening question, so ALL your assertions up to now are just that.

    As to this "The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity"....actually that doesn't take any leap of faith at all. Cordain's work itself validates this:

    Data extrapolated from "Ethnographic Atlas by Dr. George P. Murdock" shows that "Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods.

    The paper also discusses the nature of the plant foods hunter-gatherers ate. Although they ate a wide variety of plants occasionally, more typically they relied on a small number of staple foods with a high energy density. There's a table in the paper that lists the most commonly eaten plant foods. "Vegetables" are notably underrepresented. The most commonly eaten plant foods are fruit, underground storage organs (tubers, roots, corms, bulbs), nuts and other seeds. Leaves and other low-calorie plant parts were used much less frequently." Stephan Guyenet Whole Health Source: Composition of the Hunter-Gatherer Diet

    So there is ample evidence that MOST "wild" humans thrive on a meat centric diet, but CAN thrive on a variety of foods....just there is NONE that was vegetarian or vegan.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #22
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    Meh, this is getting boring. You make a bunch of claims with no evidence except a short clip of Cordain. Then you don't respond to any of the data provided to you. I'm done here. Keep trolling maybe someone else is interested.

  3. #23
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    If osteoporosis is a result of animal foods then why does conventional wisdom recommend cheese and milk? Those are animal foods.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    ...EXTENSIVE endothelial damage in a mummy of a frozen Inuit.
    Septic shock (ie, heavy infection) can cause that as well. Given the standard of medical a "frozen mummy" could have been expected to have access to, I think it's a bit of a leap to the conclusion that the corpse's condition was caused by diet.

    Not suggesting to dismiss it out of hand, either, of course.
    Last edited by DeeDub; 10-13-2012 at 05:51 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I'll need the studies you have to back up your hypothesis assertions. You haven't actually linked any of these experiments...in fact you haven't even linked the ones from your opening question, so ALL your assertions up to now are just that.

    As to this "The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity"....actually that doesn't take any leap of faith at all. Cordain's work itself validates this:

    Data extrapolated from "Ethnographic Atlas by Dr. George P. Murdock" shows that "Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods.

    The paper also discusses the nature of the plant foods hunter-gatherers ate. Although they ate a wide variety of plants occasionally, more typically they relied on a small number of staple foods with a high energy density. There's a table in the paper that lists the most commonly eaten plant foods. "Vegetables" are notably underrepresented. The most commonly eaten plant foods are fruit, underground storage organs (tubers, roots, corms, bulbs), nuts and other seeds. Leaves and other low-calorie plant parts were used much less frequently." Stephan Guyenet Whole Health Source: Composition of the Hunter-Gatherer Diet

    So there is ample evidence that MOST "wild" humans thrive on a meat centric diet, but CAN thrive on a variety of foods....just there is NONE that was vegetarian or vegan.


    Here we go again. Not one time was the word vegetarian brought up in this entire thread. Here is the stereotypical argument of meat eater vs vegetarian. I am talking about a diet high in a macronutrient content of saturated fat. Re-read the thread, the word vegetarian was not brought up. I am talking about Palmitic acid, the stuff found in not only animal fat. Listen to the audio on the first page, they were obscure papers that Cordain referenced but surly they weren't outright lies?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    Here we go again. Not one time was the word vegetarian brought up in this entire thread. Here is the stereotypical argument of meat eater vs vegetarian. I am talking about a diet high in a macronutrient content of saturated fat. Re-read the thread, the word vegetarian was not brought up. I am talking about Palmitic acid, the stuff found in not only animal fat. Listen to the audio on the first page, they were obscure papers that Cordain referenced but surly they weren't outright lies?
    The only way you can remove meat from this equation is if you literally eat ONLY lean, boneless, skinless chicken breast for meat and keep to completely non-fat dairy. Even fish and shellfish and bugs contain fair amounts of saturated fats if you propose they make up a good chunk of bulk in your diet.

    Otherwise, pretty much all animal products contain significant (at least from a dietary perspective) amounts of saturated fats and therefore, palamitic acid. And even Cordain wouldn't approve of the non-fat dairy, which leaves you with the chicken breast to make up the entire animal content of your diet.

    Seems like we've basically kept meat an integral part in this equation unless you're dry-cooking chicken breasts several times a day.
    Last edited by Drumroll; 10-14-2012 at 06:23 PM.

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    ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI

    Masai have the same problem

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    "the finding of atherosclerosis in both groups suggests that diet alone may not be a critical factor."
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI

    Masai have the same problem
    Good article...confirms that if you eat clean food and keep active the body knows how to respond to prevent problems....thanks for that.
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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