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Thread: Can someone address the saturated fat issue again page 2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Is this not just an extrapolation of your assumptions about plaque? I didn't hear anything in the discussion to this regard. Whose to say that without the inflammatory markers you may not experience such symptoms?
    Are you proposing that coronary artery calicification is an unavoidable symptom of aging? The mummy was 30 years old.

  2. #12
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    The reasons all of the studies Ron Krauss is addressing there don't work is that they were all done since the modern age of doing studies. Meaning lord knows what kind of carbohydrates they were using. The mummy with plaque was eating a "prehistoric" diet.

    It was also severely osteoporotic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Doesn't jive with all the other data out there on saturated fats and I think Cordain has sort of painted himself into this corner of having to defend a slightly lower fat type of paleo. Or maybe he hasn't and this is just his reading of the data. Either way I've seen enough evidence outside of this single report on a couple obscure autopsies to be certain that I'm not concerned.
    And what evidence is that? A coronary autopsy is a sophisticated method of determining vascular health. Outside of preforming coronary angiograms on people, and evaluating their progression(this is actually the test Dean Ornish and Caldwell Essylstein use) there are no good ways of measuring arterial plaque, to collect data on this or that. Even triglycerides aren't that sensitive or specific as to whats really going on. Calcium score is a very poor test, also.

    I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.

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    So, from the other studies being posted it seems standard primal wisdom, cut the grains and eat real food.
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    And what evidence is that? A coronary autopsy is a sophisticated method of determining vascular health. Outside of preforming coronary angiograms on people, and evaluating their progression(this is actually the test Dean Ornish and Caldwell Essylstein use) there are no good ways of measuring arterial plaque, to collect data on this or that. Even triglycerides aren't that sensitive or specific as to whats really going on. Calcium score is a very poor test, also.

    I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.

    The inuit were on an extreme diet. Whether or not it causes atherosclerosis is debatable. Follow a well rounded diet and you won't have to really worry whether it applies to you or not.
    The inuit also used seal oil lamps which could have resulted in them breathing in a lot of toxic smoke that can cause diseases like emphysema and atherosclerosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.
    You are blaming the diet without knowing anything else about this individual. Perhaps he had been marginalized from his community and underwent a lot of stress or starvation. Perhaps he had infections or parasites. All we have is one mummy and a whole lot of assumptions about X causing Y.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    Are you proposing that coronary artery calicification is an unavoidable symptom of aging? The mummy was 30 years old.
    Listen, if you wanna go "all in" with this one study (which we don't even have access to!)...then have at it. This IS N=2 science by definition. You autopsied ONE indivudual HUNDREDS of years after death and decay (or freezing...). You have absolutely NO data as to that persons habits prior to death, and you wish to base your entire case on this? Seems wreckless, but it's your health. Do as you see fit. Not to say it doesn't raise questions, but take the information gleaned in context with current studies.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012 at 09:19 AM. Reason: made it N=2 ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    You are blaming the diet without knowing anything else about this individual. Perhaps he had been marginalized from his community and underwent a lot of stress or starvation. Perhaps he had infections or parasites. All we have is one mummy and a whole lot of assumptions about X causing Y.
    There were 2 Innuit mummys found, not one. both were autopsied. Both suffered from diseases that modern medicine deems to be the result of a high animal food diet-- Osteoporosis and heart disease.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    There were 2 Innuit mummys found, not one. both were autopsied. Both suffered from diseases that modern medicine deems to be the result of a high animal food diet-- Osteoporosis and heart disease.
    Do they? Is modern medicine based on science then cause I actually have not seen this data.

    This does not seem to say so (osteoporosis) http://www.jacn.org/content/24/suppl_6/526S.short

    "In agreement with both experimental and clinical intervention studies, large prospective epidemiologic observations indicate that relatively high protein intakes, including those from animal sources are associated with increased bone mineral mass and reduced incidence of osteoporotic fractures."

    Nor does this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20442986

    "Our results are consistent with reduced risk of hip fracture with higher dietary protein intake. Larger prospective studies are needed to confirm and extend this finding in elderly men and women."

    Then you got this (since you seem to like the veggie approach) from Physiol. Res. 58 (Suppl. 1): S7-S11, 2009

    "There is however no known connection between high fat intake and increased risk of
    osteoporosis."

    "No beneficial effect of vegetarian diet on bone density has ever been proven. That is probably because of
    relatively high content of SH-amino acids in cereals, rice, oats, nuts and seeds. Other factors are the content of fibre, phytates and oxalates in vegetarian diet, which promotes resorption of calcium and its secretion in urine."

    I'm not gonna bother responding to the heart disease claim. I feel that horse has been sufficiently beaten.
    So maybe you should look at other factors for these Inuit. Is it possible of the TWO people that were studied they were not getting sufficient vitamin D, calcium, weight bearing activity, too much seal oil smoke whatever? Perhaps they were malnurished or physically ailed outliers. There are too many variables to hang your hat on just this. Sorry.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012 at 09:44 AM.

  10. #20
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    The Osteoporosis issue could be attributed to a number of factors, the hypothesis that high-protein diets favor the development of this disease is not as strongly correlated as high palmitic acid is to heart disease

    If you would address the other points about saturated fat down-regulating the LDL receptor that would also help, because there is a hypothesis that saturated fat causes heart disease and this is evidence to support the hypothesis.

    There are cardiologists who have reversed end-stage coronary artery disease(weeks to live) as evidenced using angiography, using very low-fat diets, does that support the hypothesis?



    The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity. You act as if it has already been proven to work in double-blind controlled experiments. It is still very much in the hypothetical stage, and when you have access to information about people who lived this VERSION of a paleo lifestyle then you need to review this data. If you're going to ignore it then you're not being very sound in reasoning.

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